3. PCN-Barnet-31J Entering and stopping in a box junction
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PCN-Barnet-31J Entering and stopping in a box junction
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This is my first time to post and I tried to follow everyone format on posting with essential evidence and details.I provided the PCN(masked my details) with the evidences from Barnet Council including the videos.
I am the blue BMW in the video.

After reviewed my video, I want to make the appeal because I could not estimate there would be a standstill traffic before my car right after the yellow box, giving that it's a clear green light. The second point I would try to highlight would be I can't start driving as there's a pedestian walk out while I'm waiting. Not sure my points are strong enough to make this appeal so I would like to have some advices here.

PCN : PCN Document

Video Evidence : PCN Video

Photos Evidences :
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1X3fX-y7jvOepNC7fZeSQHgDSdXxDFthe/view?usp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1p1Y44Iv-7t0Ah3_YdAKivAWgYXDqJ6_8/view?usp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1aoChJv6XbNIE2ScbFa7p3UQQ6qm88WzT/view?usp=sharing

Thanks a lot!

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« Last Edit: November 13, 2023, 06:34:45 pm by TWUK »
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Re: PCN-Barnet-31J Entering and stopping in a box junction
« Reply #1 on: »
I'm sorry to tell you that the contravention is banged-to-rights, you're not meant to enter the box unless you can see that your exit is clear.

Post the remaining pages of the PCN and we can try finding a technical defence.
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
Re: PCN-Barnet-31J Entering and stopping in a box junction
« Reply #2 on: »
+1
Sorry, OP, but as cp8759 says, the video shows you as totally bang-to-rights. You entered the YBJ when there was no room on the other side of the YBJ for your car to drive into. You were also already stopped in the box when the pedestrian appeared.

BTW, your text shows that you are under a misapprehension about the restrictions imposed by a YBJ.
Quote
I could not estimate there would be a standstill traffic before my car right after the yellow box, giving that it's a clear green light.
All the traffic light going green means is you can proceed if you can pass over the box without stopping. The video shows that you would have clearly seen before driving forward that there was no room.
Sorry if this isn't what wanted to hear, but we deal in reality on this forum, and the plain fact is that the discount is your best option. Certainly you would lose at London Tribunals and have to pay £130.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2023, 12:58:46 am by Incandescent »
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Re: PCN-Barnet-31J Entering and stopping in a box junction
« Reply #3 on: »
As others have already said, the video shows a solid contravention.

Only thing I can think of is that the time shown in the PCN doesn't correspond with when you caused your vehicle to enter the box (which is when the offence strictly occurs). You entered at 1537 and PCN says 1538.

I don't think we've tried this argument at tribunal before so can't say how likely it is to win.

Unlike other PCNs the Barnet template doesn't actually say this is when it believes you committed the offence but that this is when your vehicle 'was seen' (which I guess isn't incorrect).  PCN is obliged to state the grounds on which Barnet believe a contravention has occurred, but I'm not sure these are defined.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2023, 02:29:32 am by MrChips »
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Re: PCN-Barnet-31J Entering and stopping in a box junction
« Reply #4 on: »
Thanks all! I further read on the 31J rules and reviewed my video. I should have wait the car to exit the YBJ before I moved in.That's the rules. I will pay for the discounted PCN.

Supplemented the next few pages of PCN docs
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1kYvxyG2JECjz4wYGXiS_B60YRZoOhzmm/view?usp=sharing
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Re: PCN-Barnet-31J Entering and stopping in a box junction
« Reply #5 on: »
Quote from: MrChips on November 15, 2023, 02:17:30 am
....
Only thing I can think of is that the time shown in the PCN doesn't correspond with when you caused your vehicle to enter the box (which is when the offence strictly occurs). You entered at 1537 and PCN says 1538.

I don't think we've tried this argument at tribunal before so can't say how likely it is to win...........
It has been used and successfully but when the time of contravention on the PCN doesn't show a contravention..... ie of they had stated 15.36, the evidence is clear that there was no contravention.
In this case the video shows that the vehicle stopped, completing the 3 items prescribed (entering, stopped and due to stationary vehicle) at about 15.37.55 and that the vehicle was still stopped well into 15.38.
IMO stating either 15.37 (actual point of contravention) or 15.38 (still in contravention) is valid.
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Re: PCN-Barnet-31J Entering and stopping in a box junction
« Reply #6 on: »
Quote from: TWUK on November 15, 2023, 12:29:03 pm
Supplemented the next few pages of PCN docs
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1kYvxyG2JECjz4wYGXiS_B60YRZoOhzmm/view?usp=sharing
You need to change the sharing settings to public.
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
Re: PCN-Barnet-31J Entering and stopping in a box junction
« Reply #7 on: »
Quote from: cp8759 on November 18, 2023, 06:48:35 pm
Quote from: TWUK on November 15, 2023, 12:29:03 pm
Supplemented the next few pages of PCN docs
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1kYvxyG2JECjz4wYGXiS_B60YRZoOhzmm/view?usp=sharing
You need to change the sharing settings to public.

Changed. Thanks a lot and I paid for the discounted PCN already.
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Re: PCN-Barnet-31J Entering and stopping in a box junction
« Reply #8 on: »
As you've now paid, it's game over.
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