3. PCN appeal informal rejection - is it worth to formally appeal and take to tribunal
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PCN appeal informal rejection - is it worth to formally appeal and take to tribunal
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Hi,

I have recently received a PCN on the grounds of parking in a suspended bay marked with a large yellow sign for 08/10/23 that suspended 1 bay on the whole road, however there were 10 large yellow signs on the road that we’re suspending the whole road for one day from 28/08/23 and all 10 were left up for 6 weeks and only replacing 1 out of 10 signs.

So they suspended parking on both sides of the road for the 4th of September, but left up all signs for 6 weeks then replaced one sign on the 30th of September suspending parking in one bay for 8th of October.

https://maps.app.goo.gl/2JqX4JBKyqjv9ntA8?g_st=ic

Do I have grounds on confusing and hard to understand road signs for appealing it to tribunal?

Thank you for responding.

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Re: PCN appeal informal rejection - is it worth to formally appeal and take to tribunal
« Reply #1 on: »
more pictures from the road signs that were left up for 6 weeks upon completion of work

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Re: PCN appeal informal rejection - is it worth to formally appeal and take to tribunal
« Reply #2 on: »
Before we can think to help we need to see the PCN and all the council photos we can get them if you leave the PCN and reg number on view or you can get and post them
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Re: PCN appeal informal rejection - is it worth to formally appeal and take to tribunal
« Reply #3 on: »
PCN is posted with the first post alongside with the pictures provided by the council
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Re: PCN appeal informal rejection - is it worth to formally appeal and take to tribunal
« Reply #4 on: »
Quote from: anthomy93 on November 04, 2023, 04:01:59 pm
PCN is posted with the first post alongside with the pictures provided by the council

Only document in opening post is a reply to your challenge/reps?
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Re: PCN appeal informal rejection - is it worth to formally appeal and take to tribunal
« Reply #5 on: »
As I posted in Pepipoo
Quote
As I understand what you are saying, there had been 10 signs, along the parking bays, all suspending parking on 28th August, then the council came along, took down one of these signs and replaced it with another one that looked identical to the others but it was for a later date of 8th October. More detail on the sign positioning is really needed, please.

From your narrative, there seems to be a case to be made for misleading signage. However, you have posted-up nothing at all, so we need to see (1) the PCN (all sides), and (2) the location. A GSV link will probably be sufficient.

So I assume you recieved a PCN on your car on the 8th October. Any reason for coming on here so late ?
You've now posted up some photos
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Re: PCN appeal informal rejection - is it worth to formally appeal and take to tribunal
« Reply #6 on: »
I have posted the letter I have received and their reason for giving PCN and refusal of my informal appeal.

Is misleading signage grounds to make a formal appeal or at tribunal if needed?
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Re: PCN appeal informal rejection - is it worth to formally appeal and take to tribunal
« Reply #7 on: »
Quote from: John U.K. on November 04, 2023, 04:14:00 pm
Quote from: anthomy93 on November 04, 2023, 04:01:59 pm
PCN is posted with the first post alongside with the pictures provided by the council

Only document in opening post is a reply to your challenge/reps?

Yes that’s the only reply I’ve gotten.

Agent via phone told me council has failed to do their job to rake down the signs, but I still have to pay it according to him.

They sent me a copy of our recorded phone call so I have it as evidence to back up
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Re: PCN appeal informal rejection - is it worth to formally appeal and take to tribunal
« Reply #8 on: »
However, you have yet to post up the PCN ! It is important to see it, because sometimes they contain fatal errors of content making them void.
 Their letter in response to your reps has not considered anything at all as far as I can see. I suspect this means they realise they have f**ked-up, but send you the usual FOb-Off letter, knowing most people then cough-up.

So, are you going to fold and cough-up ?
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Re: PCN appeal informal rejection - is it worth to formally appeal and take to tribunal
« Reply #9 on: »
Please post up the PCN, or at least give us the PCN number and number plate.
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
Re: PCN appeal informal rejection - is it worth to formally appeal and take to tribunal
« Reply #10 on: »
To answer your direct question, yes, misleading signage is a valid reason to challenge, comes under ground of contravention did not occur.

I would however suggest that you spend the time to post up all documents.
People that focus on one ground that they think is strong often come unstuck.
If we are to discuss or advise, we need all the information.

An example for you which may or may not be the case.....
You parked right next door to the one sign that had been changed.
A motorist has a duty, each time they park, to check restrictions.
Given the above, an adjudicator could easily decide that the signage did not mislead.
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Re: PCN appeal informal rejection - is it worth to formally appeal and take to tribunal
« Reply #11 on: »
Quote from: DancingDad on November 04, 2023, 11:34:38 pm
To answer your direct question, yes, misleading signage is a valid reason to challenge, comes under ground of contravention did not occur.

I would however suggest that you spend the time to post up all documents.
People that focus on one ground that they think is strong often come unstuck.
If we are to discuss or advise, we need all the information.

An example for you which may or may not be the case.....
You parked right next door to the one sign that had been changed.
A motorist has a duty, each time they park, to check restrictions.
Given the above, an adjudicator could easily decide that the signage did not mislead.

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Re: PCN appeal informal rejection - is it worth to formally appeal and take to tribunal
« Reply #12 on: »
I’m pretty sure it was parked next to that one sign that was changed…

Quote from: DancingDad on November 04, 2023, 11:34:38 pm
To answer your direct question, yes, misleading signage is a valid reason to challenge, comes under ground of contravention did not occur.

I would however suggest that you spend the time to post up all documents.
People that focus on one ground that they think is strong often come unstuck.
If we are to discuss or advise, we need all the information.

An example for you which may or may not be the case.....
You parked right next door to the one sign that had been changed.
A motorist has a duty, each time they park, to check restrictions.
Given the above, an adjudicator could easily decide that the signage did not mislead.
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Re: PCN appeal informal rejection - is it worth to formally appeal and take to tribunal
« Reply #13 on: »
Quote from: anthomy93 on November 05, 2023, 02:13:36 pm
I’m pretty sure it was parked next to that one sign that was changed….......

In which case how it is phrased will be important.

And at least now I have a clearer idea on the system progression.
PCN 8th Oct...we need to see all of it not just the front
Informal Challenge ? Date and Text needed
Informal Rejection dated 31st Oct

Now waiting for NTO/trying to decide whether to pay discount
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Re: PCN appeal informal rejection - is it worth to formally appeal and take to tribunal
« Reply #14 on: »
Yes..

So basically they rejected my informal appeal that I have sent in the original post on 11th of October but I didn’t receive the letter until 31st of October.

Then they have sent a letter to extend my early fee discount on the 31st of august giving me until 7th of November to pay it.

Now waiting for NTO or pay it by Tuesday

Quote from: DancingDad on November 05, 2023, 02:24:05 pm
Quote from: anthomy93 on November 05, 2023, 02:13:36 pm
I’m pretty sure it was parked next to that one sign that was changed….......

In which case how it is phrased will be important.

And at least now I have a clearer idea on the system progression.
PCN 8th Oct...we need to see all of it not just the front
Informal Challenge ? Date and Text needed
Informal Rejection dated 31st Oct

Now waiting for NTO/trying to decide whether to pay discount
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  3. PCN appeal informal rejection - is it worth to formally appeal and take to tribunal