Author Topic: PCN and bonkers double yellow lines  (Read 1201 times)

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Re: PCN and bonkers double yellow lines
« Reply #15 on: »
>It's not and never was a parking bay.
 
>Whether a motorist thinks that a restriction is illogical is not an issue for an adjudicator.
 
That's debatable. Until around 2000 both stretches of road were parking bays. When a health centre was built around the corner the pavement was widened to cover the parking bay and double yellow lines were painted at what was the new road edge. Due to parking  pressures people them took to parking on the newly extended pavement instead. Residents took this up with the local MP who intervened and a few years later the pavement was cut back to its original position, restoring the road and the parking bays. Work was also started around 2012 to remove the yellow lines, though this was never completed as they were left behind in the bay furthest away from the health centre, and partially removed (leaving behind about 5 metres where a car was parked blocking the removal). And that's how it's been left ever since.
 
What would be the point of widening the road and removing pavement to create a parking bay that can't be used due to placement of a double yellow line? And if the intention was to create a parking bay that can't be parked in due to a double yellow, why was the double yellow line partially removed when the bay was reinstated?

All that happened prior to 2014 when the current TRO. came into force. Would there have been an earlier TRO that could explain the half baked thinking around the parking bay? As it stands, the first bay is technically a restricted area according to the TRO  yet almost all of its double yellows was burnt off before the current TRO came into force. Which suggests someone in a position of authority back in around 2012 decided the restrictions no longer made sense and started to remove them, stopped partway through then failed to note that this process was in hand when the 2014 TRO was published. Is it possible for a TRO to contain an error? Or am I missing something?

Re: PCN and bonkers double yellow lines
« Reply #16 on: »
I suggest you ask questions on these points if the rationale is important to you. But IMO butting your head against enforcement of a PCN is not the way to go about it.

Get on to your local councillor, ask to meet them there to explain etc. Don't make it sound like a crusade, just ask them why the council allows such an arrangement of lines - which is not supported by regulations or the Traffic Signs Manual - to persist as it must certainly bring their ability to manage the public realm into question.

Re: PCN and bonkers double yellow lines
« Reply #17 on: »
Is it possible for a TRO to contain an error? Or am I missing something?

Sort of. For a PCN like this to be valid, the Council needs to have a TRO and markings/signs that convey the restriction in the TRO to the motorist. Sadly, there is no requirement for the TRO to be logical, justifiable or rational, it just has to exist and be conveyed to the motorist by markings and signs.

Errors do sometimes creep in, in the form of a mismatch between the TRO and the markings/signs. Given that the line painters are clearly incompetent in this case, I think it's worth checking the relevant TRO does actually create a restriction there.

Re: PCN and bonkers double yellow lines
« Reply #18 on: »
And possibly the local press...

'Is *** council on the right lines'

'Double-trouble for motorists'

They'd find something, I'm sure!

Re: PCN and bonkers double yellow lines
« Reply #19 on: »
You haven't posted your challenge and their rejection.

Did you pin them down to which line they are enforcing, which was partly the aim of my challenge.

I would be inclined to go on with this.

- The kerbside lines were blanked but the blanking has worn off an you can show that.
- The space between the lines in the carriageway and the kerb is contrary to the traffic signs manual.

Re: PCN and bonkers double yellow lines
« Reply #20 on: »
Besides the standard details for payment and the option to challenge after waiting for a Notice to Keeper, the letter I received states the following:
 
Thank you for your enquiry concerning the Penalty Charge Notice detailed above. I have given careful consideration to the circumstances you have described but regret that there are not sufficient grounds for the notice to be withdrawn.
 
The Penalty Charge Notice was issued for the following contravention - Parked in a restricted street during prescribed hours , as your vehicle was observed parked where double yellow lines were present when waiting restrictions were in force. These restrictions were clearly shown in accordance with the Road Traffic legislation.
 
With regards to your comments concerning the condition of the yellow lines, although there are a couple of small gaps in the yellow lines due to utility works, etc, it is quite clear that a yellow line is in place and therefore as the motorist it remains your responsibility to ensure that signage is located and checked so that you are aware of the times in which the waiting restrictions apply at that particular area.
 
I have noted your comments in relation to other vehicles parked at this location and can confirm that your vehicle was not the only one to receive a Penalty Charge Notice around that time. Unfortunately due to the Data Protection Act we are unable to discuss other peoples' information.
 
In regards to your comments that you were previously advised by a Civil Enforcement Officer that you could park at this location. However, whilst I appreciate the circumstances that you have described I regret that I unable to investigate this matter as the identity number of the Civil Enforcement Officer, which is unique for every Officer has not been provided.

 
There is no mention of other material I included in my appeal including
(1) previous PCNs issued to cars parked in this parking bay have been overturned;
(2) no consideration to the lines not meeting traffic signs manual guidance or whether the alleged contravention was the roadside or kerbside line
(3) no recognition that the bay was created specifically for resident parking around 2012 (after intervention by the local MP to reverse an earlier decision to remove the bay in favour of a widened pavement, thus intentionally creating additional parking spaces). Photos from that time show that the kerbside yellow lines were partially but not fully removed or obscured and the work was never returned to be completed. Over passage of time the kerbside lines have become more prominent and the TRO dated 2014 has never been updated to reflect the renewed parking bay so still refers to the bay as restricted parking, ignoring the work started but not completed in 2012. The section of the bay where there is a stretch of double yellow the length of about four cars is used daily by local residents for parking, being continuous with a parking bay running for the length of rest of the road.
 
I'm guessing the next step is to ask the Council to explain why they created the bay in 2012 and started, but never finished, removing the yellow lines or updating the TRO...

Re: PCN and bonkers double yellow lines
« Reply #21 on: »
You don't seem to be any further forward with this.

Email them and ask which of the two lines they are enforcing in this case.

Re: PCN and bonkers double yellow lines
« Reply #22 on: »
Three months on and a Charge Certificate arrives giving me two weeks to pay up or else.

I resubmitted the evidence I previously sent in, with slightly clearer Google Streetview images taken at various points in the past that showed how blanking (tar/paint) had evidently been applied to the yellow lines a decade ago and has progressively worn off since.

In the meantime I had received a response from an FoI to traffic engineers who said they were aware of the anomaly with the partially painted over yellow lines that served no purpose but were on a TRO and they were planning to amend the TRO in due course. The Council held no information on why the yellow lines were painted in the first place, nor any record of the work to pavement over the parking bay, then remove it a few years later.

Further enquiries found that the matter had been raised at the local Ward committee 17 years ago when the lines were first installed (before online records were available). I obtained a copy of the records, and it appears that health centre contractors were building a new health centre nearby, and they, rather than the Council, instigated the yellow lines and the movement of the pavement, without either Council or residents being aware! Something to do with improving traffic flow, that actually had no impact on road safety and had not been properly authorised. Hence why the Council had no record of why there should be a TRO showing the enforcement along a stretch of partially blanked off or burnt off double yellow lines. Residents protested and after some wrangling the lines were (partially) removed. Some years later a TRO was put in place - ironically restricting parking along the stretch of road that had incorrectly had the markings applied then removed.

My fine was duly dismissed. But it took a lot of investigative legwork to get that far, and the double yellows remain increasingly visible so it may not be the last time someone gets a PCN for parking in this parking bay.

Re: PCN and bonkers double yellow lines
« Reply #23 on: »
Three months on and a Charge Certificate arrives giving me two weeks to pay up or else.

My fine was duly dismissed.


How? If you made valid reps in time and did not receive a NOR then a CC was procedurally improper and grounds for cancellation anyway. 

Would you clarify pl.

Re: PCN and bonkers double yellow lines
« Reply #24 on: »

Re: PCN and bonkers double yellow lines
« Reply #25 on: »
Don't ignore the charge certificate (or rather, do, but not the next document in the process which comes after the charge certificate).

Re: PCN and bonkers double yellow lines
« Reply #26 on: »
Three months on and a Charge Certificate arrives giving me two weeks to pay up or else.

My fine was duly dismissed.


How? If you made valid reps in time and did not receive a NOR then a CC was procedurally improper and grounds for cancellation anyway. 

Would you clarify pl.
+1
What proof have you that the PCN penalty was paid ?

Re: PCN and bonkers double yellow lines
« Reply #27 on: »
I didn't pay the initial but appealed. My initial appeal against the ticket was rejected. I had a further notice come (which I ignored as I was waiting for a response to the FoI I made about why there were parking restrictions on the road). Then came a Charge Notice, and with it an opportunity to submit further evidence. The further evidence I had learned in the meantime that the initial restrictions were not consulted upon nor installed by the Council seems to have been what was necessary for the fine to be dropped.

Re: PCN and bonkers double yellow lines
« Reply #28 on: »
I didn't pay the initial but appealed. My initial appeal against the ticket was rejected. I had a further notice come (which I ignored as I was waiting for a response to the FoI I made about why there were parking restrictions on the road). Then came a Charge Notice, and with it an opportunity to submit further evidence. The further evidence I had learned in the meantime that the initial restrictions were not consulted upon nor installed by the Council seems to have been what was necessary for the fine to be dropped.
All very nice, but where is the email/letter that tells you the penalty was cancelled, (you use 'dismissed')

Re: PCN and bonkers double yellow lines
« Reply #29 on: »
"After a full investigation, I am pleased to inform you that the Penalty Charge Notice and Notice to Owner have now been cancelled."

Love,

My local council

I presume on the basis of that, from the parking enforcement team, that I'm no longer being pursued.