Author Topic: Walthamforest PCN 50L performing a prohibited turn (no left turn) Forest road e17/ Palmerston road E17  (Read 1373 times)

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HI Everyone.  My partner received a PCN for contravening a no left turn. Normally you can turn left, but due to road works, they they have put two temporary signs indicating no left turn. The signs at at the junction in question themselves and propped up (1 against a lamppost and one against the work railings. ) From the Council cctv when i views the video online, you can see 5 other vehicles contravening the no left turn.  is anyone aware of any legal loophole that i may use like to ask for temporary traffic management order re the work and signage, and also re if the cameras used confirm to current legislation and to produce certification .

any assistance is welcome.
hopefully (third time trying) i have managed to post this

kind regards
jason

links to PCN

https://ibb.co/qjXNsmL
https://ibb.co/Vv2CRdX
https://ibb.co/cNxzXNk
https://ibb.co/QNJz6vC

gsv link
https://www.instantstreetview.com/@51.589078,-0.030139,221.59h,-6.66p,1z,iwnDSHdCqqGlByUI2V8lFA

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« Last Edit: August 11, 2023, 10:09:41 pm by Jgallo »

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Re: PCN
« Reply #1 on: »
Need to see all sides of the PCN and GSV link to the location, and any Council photos. Someone here will post the video for you if you can't manage it.
Only obscure name and address.
Try https://imgbb.com/ for pictures -lets you use BBCodes.

Re: PCN
« Reply #2 on: »


hopefully this works

Re: PCN
« Reply #3 on: »
Need to see all sides of the PCN and GSV link to the location, and any Council photos. Someone here will post the video for you if you can't manage it.
Only obscure name and address.
Try https://imgbb.com/ for pictures -lets you use BBCodes.

apologies I'm making a dogs dinner out of this.  I have no idea how to upload GSV link to the location

Re: PCN
« Reply #4 on: »
Video works well - that's what people usually find difficult.
However, pictures too small to read.

Have a read of this (number 3).
https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/read-this-first-before-posting-your-case!-this-section-is-for-council-tfl-dartme/

Try uploading pictures one by one at  https://imgbb.com/ for first pic scroll down and copy and paste the BBCode here. Repeat for each succeeding pic.

GSV = Google Street View Find the location on GSV, copy the link from the address bar and paste in your post.

Re: PCN
« Reply #5 on: »
Video works well - that's what people usually find difficult.
However, pictures too small to read.

Have a read of this (number 3).
https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/read-this-first-before-posting-your-case!-this-section-is-for-council-tfl-dartme/

Try uploading pictures one by one at  https://imgbb.com/ for first pic scroll down and copy and paste the BBCode here. Repeat for each succeeding pic.

GSV = Google Street View Find the location on GSV, copy the link from the address bar and paste in your post.

John Thank you for you assistance, I believe i have managed to attached everything on the first page using the site suggested. it shows me and technology don't mix well.

Hopefully this will bring them here for you









GSV
https://goo.gl/maps/ssRCKeRNHFxHVEJR7
« Last Edit: August 11, 2023, 09:31:37 pm by John U.K. »

No camera certification is needed under this legislation, but I will certainly ask about the traffic order.

A representation needs to be received by the council before midnight on 22 August 2023 in order to preserve the discount.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2023, 10:59:09 pm by cp8759 »
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

No camera certification is needed under this legislation, but I will certainly ask about the traffic order.

A representation needs to be received by the council before midnight on 22 August 2023 in order to preserve the discount.


Thank you for the reply.  I will contest the ticket and ask for evidence of the the traffic order.
regards
jason

No camera certification is needed under this legislation, but I will certainly ask about the traffic order.

A representation needs to be received by the council before midnight on 22 August 2023 in order to preserve the discount.

i have had a reply to my objections.  the followings what i wrote and the rejection reply i received. do i have a case if i take it to tribunal in relation that they did to provide me with traffic management order showing where the signage should be . 
regards
jason 

Dear Sir/Madam I would like to challenge PCN issued under ref no FR60206894

In relation to the area in question, (Forest Road Junction with Palmerston Road E17) you are normally allowed to turn left from Forest road into Palmerston Road E17.  From the CCTV you have provided you can see that there are current road works going on.  What is not clear to a motorist is the signage in place.  At the Traffic lights or on the lights itself, there is no signage to indicate no left turn.  The signage that can been see on the video could be construed as being left on the side or moved from elsewhere.  One is leaning against a lamp post and has a  concrete flower pot in front of it and the other is leaning against the road works with what I believe CCTV signage leaning up against it.  The signage in question are at the junction itself.  The signage should have been placed before the road works, on it’s own stands with nothing in front of it,  so to clearly indicate to a driver that at the coming junction no left turn is allowed. The previous week, vehicle have been allowed to turn into Palmerston road from Forest road.
From The CCTV provided you can see 6 vehicles turning left, which to me would indicate the signage is not clearly visible to give drivers adequate warning.  You can even see A bus trying to turn left and on seeing the sing at the last minute readjusts and  goes straight. 

In your letter you mentioned that the  Contravention was captured by a Road side Camera.

I would like to know the following

1) Can you clarify if the camera in question needs to be tested/checked on a yearly basis to confirm its working correctly? if so, could you please provide proof of this please.

2) Can you please explain to me why vehicles coming from the opposite direction are allowed to turn right into Palmerston road ?  The junction in question are controlled by traffic lights thus allowing vehicles to turn into Palmerston road, and the road works in question are at the junction itself, I cannot understand why you are issuing tickets for no left turn, but allowing vehicles to turn right in it.

3) I would also like to know if a Temporary Traffic Management Order (or the like) was in place regarding the work and signage.  (Please provide proof of this ). My understanding is that by law Temporary orders are put in place where the use of a road needs to be temporarily Prohibited, restricted, or suspended.  The order should  contain the necessary information and will show what system has been authorised  re traffic control/temp lights /restriction along with dates and times authorised and locations/size distance  of signage.  The reason for asking is that I don’t believe that has been complied with in relation to the location of the signage.

4) I would also like to know in relation to the 28/07/2023, the total number of PCN that were  issued on that day for the alleged contravention of no left turn from Forest Road into Palmerston Road E17.  This will help to show if the signage in place was sufficiently clear for road user to see.  I would suggest not, because on the video  you provided  to me via the portal you can see a further 5 vehicles turning left in that short period of time, and I suspect it has only been done to generate money for the London Borough of Waltham Forest

Why would any drive contravene any direction signage and risk paying a fine, especially during this current cost of living crisis


I respectfully request the PCN be cancelled on this occasion, as I believe the signs should have been clearly and better placed to warn driver prior to getting to the junction, as they way they are on the video appear to have just been propped up as if they had been finished with and no longer needed. I await you reply and the information requested.

Kind regards
Jason gallo

https://ibb.co/M7mgh53
https://ibb.co/PZndDsC
https://ibb.co/GTth371
« Last Edit: September 05, 2023, 10:13:57 pm by Jgallo »

The 14 day discount expires on 18 September, and I should have the traffic order (if it exists) by 13 September at the very latest. So I suggest you hold tight for now.
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

i will await your update.  Thank you
kind regards
j

Here is The Waltham Forest (Various Roads) (Water-main Replacement) (Road Closures) (No. 1) Order 2023, can't see anything in that order that creates a no left turn restriction.

Also @mrmustard has an argument against these blanket TTROs.

Notice to the fire service:



Newspaper notice:

I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

I think the council have got this back to front.

The law says that signs must be erected to reflect the contents of a traffic order.

The council says in their order that the order will be effective when signs are in place; this is a chicken and egg situation.

I would hope to win at the tribunal but new arguments always carry some risk.
I help you pro bono (for free). I now ask that a £40 donation is made to the North London Hospice before I take over your case. I have an 85% success rate across 2,000 PCNs but some PCNs can't be beaten and I will tell you if your case looks hopeless before asking you to donate.

I would just make the point that nothing in the traffic order prohibits making a left turn.

I have also now received:

The newspaper notice:



Police notification:

I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order