3. PCN 34J - Bus Lane / Bus Gate - Leeds City Council - v2
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PCN 34J - Bus Lane / Bus Gate - Leeds City Council - v2
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Hi all,

My partner has received a PCN from Leeds City Council in the post today, which relates to a 'Alleged Bus Lane Contravention'.
34J Being inn a bus lane (during the hours of operation of the bus lane)
Location: Bus Gate, East Parade JNC Headrow Northbound

Date of alleged contravention: 15/09/23
Date of notice: 28/09/23
Date Received: 03/10/23

Unfortunately my partner isnt familiar with all the numerous road closures, diversions and new bus lanes in Leeds and didnt see the signage.
Until recently (June 2023 ) this was the main route through the city centre and she hasnt been in since the changes and was completely unaware like thousands of other drivers that have been caught since.

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A previous user has posted about the same location
Previous Poster


I will attempt to go and take some photos of the area later this week

Any help in fighting the PCN would be greatly appreciated, is the letter legal?

thanks in advance
« Last Edit: October 05, 2023, 07:07:10 pm by Jarrv »
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Re: PCN 34J - Bus Lane / Bus Gate - Leeds City Council - v2
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
Re: PCN 34J - Bus Lane / Bus Gate - Leeds City Council - v2
« Reply #2 on: »
Thanks for the reply, i have read the other thread but i dont think Leeds CC will agree the PCN refers to the wrong location.
Or are we arguing the camera footage does not show the junction/location in question, as it points down the road rather than actually at the junction in question?

Looking at the official notice on the Leeds CC website, it shows the bus gate after the South Parade street which drivers are now expected to use rather than drive straight on as before Map

The junction specified in the PCN is highlighted with an orange box, the camera as a yellow circle and the red box is the location of the
Location

In reality the driver would be going through the bus gate even though it is not actually shown in the photo or video footage.
The fact that she has possibly driven through 3 separate bus gates would that not count against her?

Would we be better off contesting the letter wording or the unclear signage and or level or roadworks.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2023, 11:04:23 am by Jarrv »
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Re: PCN 34J - Bus Lane / Bus Gate - Leeds City Council - v2
« Reply #3 on: »
Quote from: Jarrv on October 06, 2023, 11:00:16 am
Thanks for the reply, i have read the other thread but i dont think Leeds CC will agree the PCN refers to the wrong location.
I agree, but who cares what Leeds Council thinks? It's not up to them, they will reject anything you say, that's why the Traffic Penalty Tribunal exists.

It's quite clear that the bus gate is at the junction of East Parade and South Parade, so it is not at the location stated on the PCN.

Quote from: Jarrv on October 06, 2023, 11:00:16 am
Would we be better off contesting the letter wording or the unclear signage and or level or roadworks.
Honestly I'd keep all of that for the tribunal stage. At this stage all you want is a notice of rejection so that you can appeal to the tribunal.
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
Re: PCN 34J - Bus Lane / Bus Gate - Leeds City Council - v2
« Reply #4 on: »
Quote from: Jarrv on October 05, 2023, 07:03:25 pm
Hi all,

My partner has received a PCN from Leeds City Council in the post today, which relates to a 'Alleged Bus Lane Contravention'.
34J Being inn a bus lane (during the hours of operation of the bus lane)
Location: Bus Gate, East Parade JNC Headrow Northbound

Date of alleged contravention: 15/09/23
Date of notice: 28/09/23
Date Received: 03/10/23
Hi, I have just registered in order to reply to you, as I was travelling as a passenger with someone who has just received a PCN for the same date and location as yours. For what it's worth, my own recollection is that area of Leeds was like driving through a building site on the day in question, with all the boarded up sections, lane closures, temporary signs and road cones scattered around (as shown by the amount of stuff in that one photo!). As far as we were aware, we had been following the only route/lane available, and did not see any obvious signs warning of the bus gate or alternative route to take - so wondered whether it may have been obscured or over-ridden by the roadworks.
As pointed out above, the PCN also appears by my reckoning to refer to a different bus gate to the one in the photo/video.
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Re: PCN 34J - Bus Lane / Bus Gate - Leeds City Council - v2
« Reply #5 on: »
Thanks for posting Ing22, I agree Leeds has become a complete nightmare to navigate around and I read an article stating how many millions the council has made in fines so far this year and its disgusting.
On the vast majority of routes there is signage overload and its impossible for any driver to take in all the signs, the council is well aware of this and see motorist as a cash cow.

Managed to upload a clear image of the alleged offence, as you can see the roadworks do not help
Image 01

Image 02, which i borrowed from another user
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Re: PCN 34J - Bus Lane / Bus Gate - Leeds City Council - v2
« Reply #6 on: »
On both those photos, you can also clearly see the 'uncontrolled crossing' signs and pedestrians crossing the road at random points (including someone looking at a mobile phone while crossing in front of the car). Such issues make safety of drivers and pedestrians paramount. I think it would be reasonable to argue that this would be a contributing factor as to to how the driver navigates the area, and their ability to processes all the temporary signage as well as two sets of permanent signage (ie the arrows painted on the road, and signs on posts at the side of the road).
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Re: PCN 34J - Bus Lane / Bus Gate - Leeds City Council - v2
« Reply #7 on: »
One further point:
According to the information at https://leedscitysquare.commonplace.is/
https://leedscitysquare.commonplace.is/en-GB/news/city-square-enters-final-phase-of-construction-from-15-may-2023
This new East Parade Bus Gate came into operation on 19 June 2023.

The current DFT guidance (which I have copied below) appears to suggest that warning notices, rather than PCNs, should be issued for the first 6 months after a new bus gate begins operation. I would be grateful if anyone with more experience in these matters than myself, could confirm whether this angle is an appropriate challenge in this case.

"Warning notices
To promote compliance by helping motorists understand the seriousness of moving traffic contraventions, for a period of 6 months following implementation of enforcement of moving traffic contraventions, at each particular camera location, local authorities outside London should issue warning notices for first-time moving traffic contraventions. This also applies to any new camera location in the future.

The warning notice should set out the 6 month period and advise that any further moving traffic contravention at the same camera location would result in the issue of a PCN. It is therefore strongly recommended that accurate records of enforcement commencement dates are maintained.

Warning notices should be issued in respect of new restrictions, for example at new junctions and new (or major changes to) road layouts, or existing restrictions, such as a long-established box junction, being civilly enforced by camera for the first time."

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/bus-lane-and-moving-traffic-enforcement-outside-london/traffic-management-act-2004-statutory-guidance-for-local-authorities-outside-london-on-civil-enforcement-of-bus-lane-and-moving-traffic-contravention
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Re: PCN 34J - Bus Lane / Bus Gate - Leeds City Council - v2
« Reply #8 on: »
Failure to follow guidance needs to be in your reps to the council, because guidance is meant to be followed unless there is a good reason not to, so by putting this in your reps, they will have to respond on that matter. Not following guidance is not a procedural impropriety, but failure to explain why guidance has not been followed would be, because the Traffic Management Act mandates that councils "have regard to" statutory guidance.
Of course, the above assumes the case goes to adjudication, because the council will just sent the usual Fob-Off letter.
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  3. PCN 34J - Bus Lane / Bus Gate - Leeds City Council - v2