Free Traffic Legal Advice

Hello all,

I recently received a PCN dated 24/09/2024 for a contravention that allegedly occurred on 11/09/2024. I would appreciate any advice or guidance you can offer on whether there is a basis to challenge this PCN, based on the circumstances I outline below.

I’m late in bringing this to the forum as I only discovered it this morning, just as I was about to file a representation or even consider paying the £80 fine(!). However, after reading through the valuable advice and seeing the time and effort the moderators put into helping others, I’ve learned so much and now feel more confident about challenging this instead of just paying up just what TfL would want.

I understand I may still need to file the representation today this on my own, as today is day 21 to keep the 50% discount? I’ll wait for a few hours and completely understand if I don’t hear back today; will proceed to file it with the knowledge that’s on here for other cases (fingers-crossed!)

Looking at other valuable responses, I’ve already called TfL this morning and have asked for the video evidence to be posted.

Summary:
At 19:11 on 11/09/2024, I pulled over and stopped in what seemed and I believed to be a loading bay with white dotted lines. I was absolutely new to the area, never driven through this side of London before. The double red lines that were previously there appeared to have been painted over, which I understood was corrected by the authorities (and I believe it could be related to this ticket https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/pcn-(46)-red-routeclearway-tfl-app-cobalt-sq-south-lambeth-rd-sw8/ which still had the red lines on within the white bay).

My wife was in the passenger seat, and we stopped briefly to pick up a takeaway from the restaurant (with orange branding) adjacent to the loading/unloading bay (marked in the attached image).



I remained in the driver’s seat while my wife went inside to collect the order. After 2-3 mins of waiting, my wife called to say that it was going to be a few more minutes. After another 2 mins of wait, I exited the vehicle (still standing next to the driver’s door) and made a phone call to my wife to check on the status. At this point, I noticed the signage indicating a 2-minute loading/unloading limit.

Realizing that my wife needed to wait to collect the order, I called her back to say that I’m leaving and immediately left the location, driving off alone at around 19:17.

Being new to the area, the signage for the loading/unloading limit was unclear to me at first, as I initially believed it applied to the adjacent bay with visible red lines (as the red lines were wiped off in the bay that I stopped in). Once I suspected that the signage "could" apply to the bay where I was stopped waiting for collection, I left the location promptly without completing the pickup. If that helps, we have order/collection receipt timed 19:13.

A few minutes later (think around 19:20), I returned to pick up my wife, who was waiting with the order in the same spot that I was stopped in originally. (unrelated to the PCN issued but still thought it’s worth mentioning about this return - this must have been a 10-second stop).

Exact Location: https://maps.app.goo.gl/JjfWiM4RovCuaQeZ7

Questions for the Forum:
1. Signage Clarity: Based on the images in Google Street View and the description of the location, does it appear that the signage and road markings could reasonably cause confusion about where the loading/unloading restriction applies? Are there any precedents regarding unclear or misleading markings?
2. Compliance with the 2-Minute Rule: Even though my wife exited the vehicle to collect the takeaway, I left the bay as soon as I realized the time limit would have been exceeded "if" the signage applied to the bay I stopped in. Could the fact that I left before the pickup was completed and only returned later affect the legitimacy of the contravention?
3. Presence of Driver: Does the fact that I remained in the vehicle, and then stood next to it without walking away, make a difference in terms of compliance with loading/unloading rules? At no point was the vehicle left unattended.
4. CCTV Evidence: If the CCTV footage shows that I left the scene alone without picking up any goods, could this support an argument that the stop was brief and incomplete and that I attempted to comply with the loading bay restrictions by leaving promptly?
5. Time Delay Between Incident and PCN: The PCN was issued 13 days after the incident. Are there any rules or limits on how long after the alleged contravention the authority can issue a PCN?

@cp8759

PCN Notice:


Images on PCN:




Status History:

Thanks @Incandescent for your prompt response.

As I had mentioned, I did see it but presumed it to apply to the next bay which had Red lines as the one in which I was stopping had them blacked-over. Because the sign said Red Route at the top, I mistook it to apply to the bay with red lines! Now I know what it means, my bad being completely new to the area.

So on the basis that you mentioned at the end of your response, should my basis at this stage of filling a rep only be based on the incorrect contravention? Could I base it on these reasons?

1. Incorrect contravention, stopping was allowed but I went over for the reason I mentioned (new to area, leaving off as soon as realised)
2. Was stopped only for pickup, never left the vehicle for that reason?
3. CCTV will show that my wife got down and then I left after she came out to tell me of the sign (I realise it was outside the 2 min allowed time).

Can someone help with the wording for the representation? 🙏

Could you @cp8759 look at the details and @Incandescent's take if possible and suggest your take please?

Best Regards

Thank you so much, @H C Andersen.

Given the notice was issued on 24/09, as I mentioned on my note, I think I'll need to challenge the PCN today itself to keep the 50% discount (I asked for video evidence today which will put my PCN on hold but my understanding is I still need to file the representation today?).

Re: the worthy point you raised, is there any regulation that I could reference to make a mention of this point or should I keep it generic for now as something like: "...the text on the signage consists of two panels. The lower, second panel does not appear to conform with regulatory requirements. Even if it did, there remains ambiguity regarding what "set down or pick up" means in the context of private vehicles on a Red Route. The lack of clarity in this regulatory wording adds to the confusion, making it difficult as a driver to interpret the restrictions accurately."

@as1303 well you've made a representation so you might as well show us what you've sent. For what it's worth, unless TFL have fixed it then all their PCNs suffer from a technical flaw illustrated by these cases:

Rafael Mendez v Transport for London (2240252600, 2 September 2024)
Stanmore Quality Services Limited (form. Stanmore Quality Surfacing Limited) v Transport for London (2240335989, 28 September 2024)

The downside is that you don't get to see if the issue exists in your case until you get the evidence pack from TFL, but fortunately TFL will reoffer the discount if an appeal notification is sent to them by London Tribunals while the discount is still on offer, so it's virtually risk-free to test the argument.

TFL also have a general propensity to mess up the evidence packs.

@cp8759 thank you so much for keeping a tab on this. I was between moving houses and have received it last week was going to update here tomorrow and saw your message just now.

Also my apologies somehow I missed the notification on your last message where you asked to update with what I sent to TFL.

So here is what I sent to them on the representation from whatever I understood with my limited knowledge and taking ideas from your responses to other threads.

SUBMITTED to TFL:

Dear Transport for London,

I am writing to challenge PCN GX18507789, which I received for an alleged contravention on 11/09/2024. Below are my reasons for contesting the PCN:

The alleged contravention did not occur because the PCN was issued for "46: Stopped where prohibited (on a red route or clearway)," but stopping was not entirely prohibited in the bay where I briefly stopped. My wife (passenger at the time) exited the vehicle to pick takeaway order as she was feeling unwell and hungry so needed to grab food quickly (receipt attached for 19:13 hours).

The red lines in the white-dotted bay where I stopped had been blacked out (please see image), which led me to believe the prohibition applied to the adjacent bay with visible red lines.

I was unfamiliar with the area and mistakenly interpreted the signage to apply to the adjacent bay with visible red lines, not the bay I was in. The signage was unclear, and this confusion was compounded by the fact that the "Red Route" sign was over a bay where the red lines were blacked out, while the adjacent bay had bright visible red lines.

Additionally, the signage comprises two panels, and the lower, second panel does not appear to conform with regulatory requirements. Even if it does, the wording "set down or pick up" is vague in the context of private vehicles on a Red Route, further adding to the confusion and making it difficult to interpret the restrictions as a driver in a new location.

I briefly stopped for collection of a food takeway order, with my wife exiting the vehicle to collect an order from a nearby restaurant, SKVP Vauxhall directly opposite the bay (I stayed in the vehicle). When I realized the 2-minute restriction could apply to this bay (when I got out of the vehicle very briefly), I promptly left without completing the pickup.

The CCTV footage will confirm that I did not leave the vehicle unattended during this period, and I complied as soon as I realized the potential restriction.

I request that the penalty charge notice for the incorrect contravention be cancelled based on the above points, particularly the incorrect contravention, confusion caused due to signage and my immediate compliance upon realizing the possible signage restrictions.

I have attached the food takeaway receipt and pictures supporting the points above.

Kind regards,

**************************** END of Representation submitted to TFL ***********

- I still haven't received any evidence pack from TFL (as mentioned on my previous updated, I placed the request on 14 Oct 2024 on the back of advice on other threads). Should I be chasing them as they mention basing the representation's rejection on evidence but I have received nothing from them in post yet and I did come out of the vehicle as they say but later left as soon as I realised that "what if" restriction could still apply after initially understanding that the red restriction doesn't apply to where I was stopped - please refer to my representation text for details (and the info I provided on my original post - I laid out that info along with whatever support I received on this forum and sent over to TFL.

- I have attached the Notice of Rejection for your review. Please advice what my next steps should be. I have explained everything what happened in my above note (that I have added below "SUBMITTED to TLF text"

Thank you so much in advance.

Best regards

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Thanks @cp8759 for your response. Really appreciate your advice here.

So I called TFL first thing this morning because it was closed over the weekend. The person on the phone said they're putting a new request in but that won't freeze the discount -- that it's already past the expiry of the £80 period and it should be going up any time. On the PCN record when I log in, it still shows £80 to pay.

For the new footage request, I have been given a reference number but it doesn't show up on the PCN history.

Honestly, I am in two minds now - to take it to the tribunal or pay the £80 while the discount exists - please advice.

Many thanks.