Author Topic: Moving Traffic Contraventions in London  (Read 206 times)

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John_S

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Moving Traffic Contraventions in London
« on: May 20, 2024, 08:54:52 am »
The London Local Authorities and Transport for London Act 2003 provides a framework for enforcement authorities in London to issue PCNs for moving traffic contraventions. Parts of this Act are earmarked for repeal in the Traffic Management Act 2004. The 2004 Act also sets-out a framework for enforcement authorities (including those in London I believe) to issue PCNs. The 2004 Act provides a slightly different definition of moving traffic contravention to the 2003 Act – the 2003 Act appearing to capture a wider range of traffic signs.

Where a PCN has been issued in London under the 2003 Act, does the 2004 Act also apply?

My understanding is that the 2003 Act takes precedence here, but that doesn’t explain why there appears to be two definitions of moving traffic contravention running concurrently. Is anyone able to explain this please?

Thanks in anticipation.

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Incandescent

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Re: Moving Traffic Contraventions in London
« Reply #1 on: May 20, 2024, 09:27:00 am »
The Traffic Management Act 2004 is only used for parking offences in London, and the LLA & TfL Act 2003 is used for moving traffic offences. So far, the government have not forced London to transfer over to the later TMA 2004. It is only recently that the government has moved councils outside London onto the TMA 2004, for bus lane offences.

If you look at the regulations that apply to the TMA 2004, you'll see that they specifically exclude London.

Here is Regulation 1
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2022/71/regulation/1/made

The London authorities love having their own Act because they can set the PCN penalties. These are about double the rest of the country.  If you look at their Act, the Secretary of State can object to the chosen PCN penalties, but as far as I know, has never done so.

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukla/2003/3/section/11/enacted

Basically, it is a Dog's Breakfast !

cp8759

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Re: Moving Traffic Contraventions in London
« Reply #2 on: May 20, 2024, 10:44:33 am »
@John_S you need to read the guidance here please: https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/read-this-first-before-posting-your-case!-this-section-is-for-council-tfl-dartme/

You also said on the facebook group that you've got a notice of rejection from Merton, so please show us.

As for your question, the simple answer is that the provisions of the 2004 Act have not been brought into force in London, so in London the 2003 Act applies, outside London moving traffic is dealt with by the 2004 Act.
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor nor a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

John_S

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Re: Moving Traffic Contraventions in London
« Reply #3 on: May 20, 2024, 11:34:14 am »
Thanks for the prompt replies. To put this in context, I was half way through dealing with a PCN when I came across this site - hence I didn’t post the original PCN. I am happy to do so retrospectively if you wish. The PCN is essentially identical (same location) to the one posted by John Barrow recently on the Facebook Group.

At the location (Cambridge Road) Merton have used ‘special authorisation’ road signs, so they are not listed in the TMA 2004.

So my real question is: can ‘special authorisation’ signs be used for moving traffic contraventions under the 2003 Act?

Neil B

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Re: Moving Traffic Contraventions in London
« Reply #4 on: May 20, 2024, 03:51:04 pm »
So my real question is: can ‘special authorisation’ signs be used for moving traffic contraventions under the 2003 Act?
You keep asking questions but still show us nothing?

IIRC John Barrow had a pcn that was served out of time.

H C Andersen

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Re: Moving Traffic Contraventions in London
« Reply #5 on: May 20, 2024, 05:01:15 pm »

OP, the Traffic Management Act is enabling legislation and any analysis needs to start at one of the last sections, not the first!

In this case, s99:

Commencement, transitionals and savings
(1)The preceding provisions of this Act shall come into force on such day as the Secretary of State (as respects England) or the National Assembly for Wales (as respects Wales) may appoint by order made by statutory instrument.

(2)Different days may be appointed for different purposes.

(3)For the purposes of Part 6 (civil enforcement of road traffic contraventions), and related repeals, different days may be appointed for different areas.

(4)The Secretary of State (as respects England) or the National Assembly for Wales (as respects Wales) may by order made by statutory instrument make transitional provision or savings in connection with the coming into force of any provision of this Act.


You then need to go to 'legislation.gov' and see which statutory instruments have been made and which sections of the Act have been brought into effect and when.

This is the latest I found: https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2022/649/earlier-orders/made

The LLA 2003 is lined up for repeal in Schedule 12 to TMA, but that part has not been brought into effect through a Commencement Order.

cp8759

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Re: Moving Traffic Contraventions in London
« Reply #6 on: May 20, 2024, 07:00:00 pm »
At the location (Cambridge Road) Merton have used ‘special authorisation’ road signs, so they are not listed in the TMA 2004.

So my real question is: can ‘special authorisation’ signs be used for moving traffic contraventions under the 2003 Act?
No signs or special authorisations exist under either Act, you're quoting the wrong legislation. Signs are dealt with by section 64 of the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984 and by the Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2016.

You've posted the NoR on facebook so here it is:











Please show us the PCN as well and then we can investigate this properly.

Please read the guidance here explaining what you should and shouldn't redact, and how to post images properly: https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/read-this-first-before-posting-your-case!-this-section-is-for-council-tfl-dartme/
« Last Edit: May 20, 2024, 07:01:48 pm by cp8759 »
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor nor a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

John_S

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Re: Moving Traffic Contraventions in London
« Reply #7 on: May 21, 2024, 10:10:30 am »
Thanks. For completeness I’ve posted the PCN and a photo of the relevant signage.

The main question here may have been misunderstood. The signage at this location comprises (on the near-side of the road) a post with three separate signs:
1. School Streets
2. No motor vehicles
3. School Term Time

1 and 3 are non-compliant; 2 is a ‘special authorisation’ under s64 Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984.

Re sign 2: s73 and Sch7 of 2004 Act (https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2004/18/section/73) specifies signs that can be used to create a ‘moving traffic contravention’. The 2004 Act doesn’t mention ‘special authorisations’ so if this were outside London, although sign 2 is compliant - I do not believe the PCN would stand as the sign falls outside the scope of the 2004 Act. Correct?

Section 73 commenced in England in 2007:
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2007/2053/made

But this is inside London and the 2003 Act applies. So for peace of mind, I would like to find:
(a) in which order/regs London is excluded from s73 2004 Act (if at all)? and
(b) whether there are any other orders/regs that exclude ‘special authorisations’ under the 2003 Act? and if not
(c) whether there are any limitations at all on traffic signs to be used for moving traffic contraventions in London?

Any further comments would be greatly appreciated, particularly regarding the wording on the PCN and NoR.



John_S

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Re: Moving Traffic Contraventions in London
« Reply #8 on: May 21, 2024, 10:20:02 am »
Having difficulty with images on imgur... hope this works...





« Last Edit: May 27, 2024, 03:14:28 pm by cp8759 »

cp8759

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Re: Moving Traffic Contraventions in London
« Reply #9 on: May 27, 2024, 03:22:40 pm »
Here's the video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfCqmR9guHY

@John_S this case can be argued on the same grounds as Conor Costelloe v London Borough of Merton (2240078999, 23 March 2024).

The council sought a review that was refused, see London Borough of Merton v Conor Costelloe (2240078999, 5 April 2024)

Of course all appeals carry an element of risk, but as the discount has expired you have nothing to lose at this point. I will drop you a PM in case you'd like to be represented.
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor nor a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

John_S

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Re: Moving Traffic Contraventions in London
« Reply #10 on: July 10, 2024, 09:17:42 am »
Hi everyone, it took the adjudicator a mere 50 seconds to allow this appeal yesterday. There is now a well established principle condemning the school streets signage at most of Merton’s 29 sites.

I am keen to make a costs application for this case. The last one I done was in 2002, so I could use some advice please.

I’m comfortable with proving the Authority have been wholly unreasonable in this case, but I’m not sure about:

(1) the format of a costs application;
(2) the process (stages).
(3) how to calculate quantum (and recent examples of successful applications); and
(4) what evidence is needed to prove my losses, bearing in mind I am representing an appellant that lives at the same address as me.

Would greatly appreciate any advice.

John U.K.

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Re: Moving Traffic Contraventions in London
« Reply #11 on: July 10, 2024, 10:05:46 am »
Well done :)


2240246685, I presume.

John_S

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Re: Moving Traffic Contraventions in London
« Reply #12 on: July 10, 2024, 10:21:13 am »
Well done :)


2240246685, I presume.

Correct...

Hippocrates

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Re: Moving Traffic Contraventions in London
« Reply #13 on: July 10, 2024, 12:15:21 pm »
Hi everyone, it took the adjudicator a mere 50 seconds to allow this appeal yesterday. There is now a well established principle condemning the school streets signage at most of Merton’s 29 sites.

I am keen to make a costs application for this case. The last one I done was in 2002, so I could use some advice please.

I’m comfortable with proving the Authority have been wholly unreasonable in this case, but I’m not sure about:

(1) the format of a costs application;
(2) the process (stages).
(3) how to calculate quantum (and recent examples of successful applications); and
(4) what evidence is needed to prove my losses, bearing in mind I am representing an appellant that lives at the same address as me.

Would greatly appreciate any advice.

Start from what Mr Harman said:

A multiplicity of signage is posted at this junction.

It amounts to my mind to signage overload.

I was satisfied for the reasons given by Mr Shirley that the council's regulatory signage was not compliant with the TSRGD 2016 it in any event being unclear the restriction being difficult to assimilate given the plethora of information shown on it.

I was not satisfied against this background that this contravention had been proved and I allowed the appeal
.

I am happy to draft an application but would need more details.
There are known knowns which, had we known, we would never have wished to know. It is known that this also applies to the known unknowns. However, when one attends a hearing, Mr Rumsfeld's idea that there are also unknown unknowns fails to apply because, anyone who is in the know, knows that unknown unknowns are purely a deception otherwise known as an aleatory experience or also known as a lottery. I know that I know this to be a fact and, in this knowledge, I know that I am fully prepared to present my case but, paradoxically, in full knowledge that the unknown unknowns may well apply in view of some adjudicators' lack of knowing what they ought to know through no fault of their own.

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ἔοικα γοῦν τούτου γε σμικρῷ τινι αὐτῷ τούτῳ σοφώτερος εἶναι, ὅτι ἃ μὴ οἶδα οὐδὲ οἴομαι εἰ

Hippocrates

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Re: Moving Traffic Contraventions in London
« Reply #14 on: Yesterday at 11:36:47 am »
« Last Edit: Yesterday at 11:40:09 am by Hippocrates »
There are known knowns which, had we known, we would never have wished to know. It is known that this also applies to the known unknowns. However, when one attends a hearing, Mr Rumsfeld's idea that there are also unknown unknowns fails to apply because, anyone who is in the know, knows that unknown unknowns are purely a deception otherwise known as an aleatory experience or also known as a lottery. I know that I know this to be a fact and, in this knowledge, I know that I am fully prepared to present my case but, paradoxically, in full knowledge that the unknown unknowns may well apply in view of some adjudicators' lack of knowing what they ought to know through no fault of their own.

"Hippocrates"

ἔοικα γοῦν τούτου γε σμικρῷ τινι αὐτῷ τούτῳ σοφώτερος εἶναι, ὅτι ἃ μὴ οἶδα οὐδὲ οἴομαι εἰ