Author Topic: Motorcycle in bus lane, confusing sign  (Read 658 times)

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Peter222

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Motorcycle in bus lane, confusing sign
« on: May 29, 2024, 09:51:28 pm »
Hi all,

On 15th April I was snapped in a bus lane in Hammersmith (London). I admit to this, of course, it was me on the bike.

On 2nd May I had to go to hospital, and was the next day informed from home that a PCN had arrived for me. As I felt unable to deal with it properly at the time I sent an email to LBHF (London Borough of Hammersmith and Fulham) requesting an extension of the grace period. I got an automatic reply. I phoned the number on the PCN and was reassured that as my email had been received, the PCN was automatically on hold until a reply was sent. Until now, there has been no reply so I assume it's still on hold.

Nearly all of London's bus lanes now permit motorcycles as well as buses and taxis and I've been sort of taking this for granted. Suddenly here is a confusing sign, showing a bus lane in the middle of the road, that I was trying to decipher and I missed the fact that there was no motorcycle icon shown. In no time I was past the sign and in the bus lane, which of course I assumed was open to motorcycles.

Apart from the fact that I can think of no convincing reason to exclude motorcycles from bus lanes, which suggests that this exclusion may simply be a money-making scheme which works by catching bikers out, I am fully resigned to paying the fine.

Unless there is a reason to challenge? Can anyone suggest whether I have any grounds?

Many thanks
Peter

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Incandescent

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Re: Motorcycle in bus lane, confusing sign
« Reply #1 on: May 29, 2024, 10:06:36 pm »
It's not a specific money-making scheme against motorcyclists, although it undoubtedly makes a lot of money from all types of vehicles, and is pretty notorious on this forum.

As I understand it, all the TfL-controlled bus lanes allow motorbikes, but councils can decide for themselves, and you've really no way of telling which bus lane is under which authority, so the sign is crucial.

You can search the London Tribunals Statutory Register of cases to see the cases at this location. Try the last couple of years.

http://www.londontribunals.gov.uk/

Hippocrates

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Re: Motorcycle in bus lane, confusing sign
« Reply #2 on: May 29, 2024, 10:40:52 pm »
Do not pay this at all.  I will PM you tomorrow. They have not adhered to the authorised plan of the Dept. for Transport for starters!
« Last Edit: May 29, 2024, 10:57:17 pm by Hippocrates »
There are known knowns which, had we known, we would never have wished to know. It is known that this also applies to the known unknowns. However, when one attends a hearing, Mr Rumsfeld's idea that there are also unknown unknowns fails to apply because, anyone who is in the know, knows that unknown unknowns are purely a deception otherwise known as an aleatory experience or also known as a lottery. I know that I know this to be a fact and, in this knowledge, I know that I am fully prepared to present my case but, paradoxically, in full knowledge that the unknown unknowns may well apply in view of some adjudicators' lack of knowing what they ought to know through no fault of their own.

"Hippocrates"

ἔοικα γοῦν τούτου γε σμικρῷ τινι αὐτῷ τούτῳ σοφώτερος εἶναι, ὅτι ἃ μὴ οἶδα οὐδὲ οἴομαι εἰ

estevenin

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Re: Motorcycle in bus lane, confusing sign
« Reply #3 on: May 30, 2024, 12:34:35 am »
Have the councils sorted the Secretary of State's certificates for their cameras yet or still not ? If not yet, the evidence is inadmissible at tribunals stage, all Greater London's bus lane PCN for the past years have been issued without any admissible evidence : https://lbbspending.blogspot.com/2022/12/how-to-get-bus-lane-pcn-in-london.html

Senior members will confirm if this is still a valid argument in May 2024 or not.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2024, 12:37:34 am by estevenin »

Hippocrates

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Re: Motorcycle in bus lane, confusing sign
« Reply #4 on: May 30, 2024, 12:09:01 pm »
Have the councils sorted the Secretary of State's certificates for their cameras yet or still not ? If not yet, the evidence is inadmissible at tribunals stage, all Greater London's bus lane PCN for the past years have been issued without any admissible evidence : https://lbbspending.blogspot.com/2022/12/how-to-get-bus-lane-pcn-in-london.html

Senior members will confirm if this is still a valid argument in May 2024 or not.

The vast majority of them have but they still need to attend and be cross-examined. And one council, at least, uses one camera which does not have a VCA certificate. This bus lane though has other issues re the signage.
There are known knowns which, had we known, we would never have wished to know. It is known that this also applies to the known unknowns. However, when one attends a hearing, Mr Rumsfeld's idea that there are also unknown unknowns fails to apply because, anyone who is in the know, knows that unknown unknowns are purely a deception otherwise known as an aleatory experience or also known as a lottery. I know that I know this to be a fact and, in this knowledge, I know that I am fully prepared to present my case but, paradoxically, in full knowledge that the unknown unknowns may well apply in view of some adjudicators' lack of knowing what they ought to know through no fault of their own.

"Hippocrates"

ἔοικα γοῦν τούτου γε σμικρῷ τινι αὐτῷ τούτῳ σοφώτερος εἶναι, ὅτι ἃ μὴ οἶδα οὐδὲ οἴομαι εἰ

Hippocrates

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There are known knowns which, had we known, we would never have wished to know. It is known that this also applies to the known unknowns. However, when one attends a hearing, Mr Rumsfeld's idea that there are also unknown unknowns fails to apply because, anyone who is in the know, knows that unknown unknowns are purely a deception otherwise known as an aleatory experience or also known as a lottery. I know that I know this to be a fact and, in this knowledge, I know that I am fully prepared to present my case but, paradoxically, in full knowledge that the unknown unknowns may well apply in view of some adjudicators' lack of knowing what they ought to know through no fault of their own.

"Hippocrates"

ἔοικα γοῦν τούτου γε σμικρῷ τινι αὐτῷ τούτῳ σοφώτερος εἶναι, ὅτι ἃ μὴ οἶδα οὐδὲ οἴομαι εἰ

Peter222

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Re: Motorcycle in bus lane, confusing sign
« Reply #6 on: May 31, 2024, 03:12:50 pm »


You can search the London Tribunals Statutory Register of cases to see the cases at this location. Try the last couple of years.

http://www.londontribunals.gov.uk/

Thanks for this pointer, but I couldn't find the way forward. The site kept returning me to the home page. I couldn't find a "search" button.

Peter222

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Re: Motorcycle in bus lane, confusing sign
« Reply #7 on: May 31, 2024, 03:18:54 pm »
Have the councils sorted the Secretary of State's certificates for their cameras yet or still not ? If not yet, the evidence is inadmissible at tribunals stage, all Greater London's bus lane PCN for the past years have been issued without any admissible evidence : https://lbbspending.blogspot.com/2022/12/how-to-get-bus-lane-pcn-in-london.html

Senior members will confirm if this is still a valid argument in May 2024 or not.

The vast majority of them have but they still need to attend and be cross-examined. And one council, at least, uses one camera which does not have a VCA certificate. This bus lane though has other issues re the signage.



How would I find this out? An email asking for a copy of the VCA certificate for camera number HBF302?

John U.K.

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Re: Motorcycle in bus lane, confusing sign
« Reply #8 on: May 31, 2024, 03:22:35 pm »
Quote
Thanks for this pointer, but I couldn't find the way forward. The site kept returning me to the home page. I couldn't find a "search" button.

Try

https://www.londontribunals.gov.uk/about/registers-appeals

Hit 'Access the statutory registers' button

scroll; down to (ETA)

hit the 'search' button.

Peter222

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Re: Motorcycle in bus lane, confusing sign
« Reply #9 on: May 31, 2024, 03:56:26 pm »
Quote
Thanks for this pointer, but I couldn't find the way forward. The site kept returning me to the home page. I couldn't find a "search" button.

Try

https://www.londontribunals.gov.uk/about/registers-appeals

Hit 'Access the statutory registers' button

scroll; down to (ETA)

hit the 'search' button.

Well that worked, thanks, but on entering a 3-year period to today, the location as shown on my PCN ("buslane shepherds bush road southbound offside", and the borough, the search returned only one result, a successful appeal based on the bus lane sign not appearing in the CCTV photo. My PCN has the sign, although it does seem to be slightly after the start of the bus lane markings.

I wonder if it's worth riding back to the location with a tape measure? It's not too far.

John U.K.

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Re: Motorcycle in bus lane, confusing sign
« Reply #10 on: May 31, 2024, 04:33:25 pm »
I found these, but you need to look up the individual cases to see which concern this particular bit of 'bus lane.



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London Tribunals Environment & Traffic Adjudicators
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ETA Register of Appeals

    Register kept under Regulation 20 of the Road Traffic (Parking Adjudicators) (London) Regulations 1993, as amended and Regulation 17 of the Civil Enforcement of Road Traffic Contraventions (Representations and Appeals) (England) Regulations 2022.

    This screen shows short details of the appeals decided. To see the full entry for an appeal you should click on the case reference.
    Use the Previous and Next options to browse backwards and forwards through the register.

    To search the register - for example to find cases for a specific date - you should click on the Search link.

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    31 Case(s) found

Case Reference Date Registered Surname Forename Company Enforcing Authority PCN PCN Location
Latest Outcome Date Outcome
2130601772 03/12/2013 Terry David Ivor - London Borough of Hammersmith and Fulham HZ41419299 Shepherds Bush Road 09/01/2014 Appeal allowed
2130595476 29/11/2013 Asghari Amine - London Borough of Hammersmith and Fulham HZ40901472 Shepherds Bush Road 30/01/2014 Appeal allowed
2140099743 27/02/2014 Avgousti Andrianna - London Borough of Hammersmith and Fulham HZ41204226 Shepherds Bush Road 07/04/2014 Appeal allowed
2140006797 06/01/2014 - - Fresh Direct (UK) Ltd London Borough of Hammersmith and Fulham HZ4123646A Shepherds Bush Road 30/04/2014 Appeal allowed
2140026692 22/01/2014 - - Fresh Direct UK Ltd London Borough of Hammersmith and Fulham HZ41146607 Shepherds Bush Road 13/06/2014 Appeal allowed
2140291864 24/06/2014 Goldsmith Anthony - London Borough of Hammersmith and Fulham HZ42203080 Shepherds Bush Road 25/07/2014 Appeal allowed
2140406150 08/09/2014 Arora Jasvinder Singh - London Borough of Hammersmith and Fulham HZ43574554 Shepherds Bush Road 07/10/2014 Appeal allowed
2140451847 08/10/2014 Pattison Nicholas - London Borough of Hammersmith and Fulham HZ42617491 Shepherds Bush Road 10/11/2014 Appeal allowed
2140464022 16/10/2014 - - K E Kent London Borough of Hammersmith and Fulham HZ44006557 Shepherds Bush Road 17/11/2014 Appeal allowed
2150134465 16/04/2015 - - Ocado Ltd London Borough of Hammersmith and Fulham HZ4423895A Shepherds Bush Road 20/05/2015 Appeal allowed
2150180473 20/05/2015 Balaj Muhabi - London Borough of Hammersmith and Fulham HZ4494695A Shepherds Bush Road 24/06/2015 Appeal allowed
2150230028 29/06/2015 - - Carey England Ltd London Borough of Hammersmith and Fulham HZ44559545 Shepherds Bush Road 05/08/2015 Appeal allowed
215026933A 31/07/2015 MILLS CLARE KAREN - London Borough of Hammersmith and Fulham HZ4603494A Shepherds Bush Road 28/08/2015 Appeal allowed
2150222970 29/06/2015 - - Fresh Direct London Borough of Hammersmith and Fulham HZ45083666 Shepherds Bush Road 10/10/2015 Appeal allowed
2150350675 24/09/2015 Harti Ahmed - London Borough of Hammersmith and Fulham HZ4531140A Shepherds Bush Road 22/10/2015 Appeal allowed
row(s) 1 - 15 of 31
Case Reference Date Registered Surname Forename Company Enforcing Authority PCN PCN Location
Latest Outcome Date Outcome
2150386082 20/10/2015 Carnegie Hanna - London Borough of Hammersmith and Fulham HZ46204890 Shepherds Bush Road 28/11/2015 Appeal allowed
215038508A 20/10/2015 Dhar Anil - London Borough of Hammersmith and Fulham HZ45266123 Shepherds Bush Road 01/12/2015 Appeal allowed
2150425311 16/11/2015 Wimalaratna Hemalal - London Borough of Hammersmith and Fulham HZ46155139 Shepherds Bush Road 18/01/2016 Appeal allowed
2180390395 04/10/2018 Ballard Roger - London Borough of Hammersmith and Fulham HZ23839204 Shepherds Bush Road 16/11/2018 Appeal allowed
2180405164 15/10/2018 Verney Stuart - London Borough of Hammersmith and Fulham HZ24186773 Shepherds Bush Road 17/11/2018 Appeal allowed
2180439734 10/12/2018 Leaton Daniel - London Borough of Hammersmith and Fulham HZ21825264 Shepherds Bush Road 09/01/2019 Appeal allowed
219001153A 09/01/2019 Santoro Francesco - London Borough of Hammersmith and Fulham HZ24296738 Shepherds Bush Road 13/02/2019 Appeal allowed
2190013615 10/01/2019 Mozil Sami - London Borough of Hammersmith and Fulham HZ24641610 Shepherds Bush Road 21/02/2019 Appeal allowed
2190195443 15/05/2019 Mirao Lino Elisio Marques - London Borough of Hammersmith and Fulham HZ25011833 Shepherds Bush Road 14/06/2019 Appeal allowed
2190264171 01/07/2019 Barton Lewis - London Borough of Hammersmith and Fulham HZ24914564 Shepherds Bush Road 02/08/2019 Appeal allowed
2190253062 25/06/2019 Rahman Ehsanur - London Borough of Hammersmith and Fulham HZ25356551 Shepherds Bush Road 03/08/2019 Appeal allowed
2190276909 09/07/2019 Avis Linda - London Borough of Hammersmith and Fulham HZ24958774 Shepherds Bush Road 07/08/2019 Appeal allowed
2190347439 21/08/2019 Morsy Mostafa - London Borough of Hammersmith and Fulham HZ25283389 Shepherds Bush Road 25/09/2019 Appeal allowed
2200031184 22/01/2020 - - 3663 Transport Limited London Borough of Hammersmith and Fulham HZ17481263 Shepherds Bush Road 16/04/2020 Appeal allowed
2210307463 04/06/2021 Ishaq Raja - London Borough of Hammersmith and Fulham HZ19766195 Shepherds Bush Road 15/07/2021 Appeal allowed
2220358686 17/05/2022 Bryant-Von-Haidenthaler Elisabeth - London Borough of Hammersmith and Fulham HZ65895267 Shepherds Bush Road 18/06/2022 Appeal allowed
« Last Edit: May 31, 2024, 04:35:57 pm by John U.K. »

Hippocrates

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Re: Motorcycle in bus lane, confusing sign
« Reply #11 on: May 31, 2024, 05:34:49 pm »
Please. Listen to my advice and confirm your e mail address to me via a PM. Old cases are based on the arguments presented. My information is comprehensive.
There are known knowns which, had we known, we would never have wished to know. It is known that this also applies to the known unknowns. However, when one attends a hearing, Mr Rumsfeld's idea that there are also unknown unknowns fails to apply because, anyone who is in the know, knows that unknown unknowns are purely a deception otherwise known as an aleatory experience or also known as a lottery. I know that I know this to be a fact and, in this knowledge, I know that I am fully prepared to present my case but, paradoxically, in full knowledge that the unknown unknowns may well apply in view of some adjudicators' lack of knowing what they ought to know through no fault of their own.

"Hippocrates"

ἔοικα γοῦν τούτου γε σμικρῷ τινι αὐτῷ τούτῳ σοφώτερος εἶναι, ὅτι ἃ μὴ οἶδα οὐδὲ οἴομαι εἰ

Hippocrates

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Re: Motorcycle in bus lane, confusing sign
« Reply #12 on: May 31, 2024, 05:36:48 pm »
Have the councils sorted the Secretary of State's certificates for their cameras yet or still not ? If not yet, the evidence is inadmissible at tribunals stage, all Greater London's bus lane PCN for the past years have been issued without any admissible evidence : https://lbbspending.blogspot.com/2022/12/how-to-get-bus-lane-pcn-in-london.html

Senior members will confirm if this is still a valid argument in May 2024 or not.

The vast majority of them have but they still need to attend and be cross-examined. And one council, at least, uses one camera which does not have a VCA certificate. This bus lane though has other issues re the signage.



How would I find this out? An email asking for a copy of the VCA certificate for camera number HBF302?

Please. If you want my assistance, accept my advice and all this can be incorporated into a challenge.
There are known knowns which, had we known, we would never have wished to know. It is known that this also applies to the known unknowns. However, when one attends a hearing, Mr Rumsfeld's idea that there are also unknown unknowns fails to apply because, anyone who is in the know, knows that unknown unknowns are purely a deception otherwise known as an aleatory experience or also known as a lottery. I know that I know this to be a fact and, in this knowledge, I know that I am fully prepared to present my case but, paradoxically, in full knowledge that the unknown unknowns may well apply in view of some adjudicators' lack of knowing what they ought to know through no fault of their own.

"Hippocrates"

ἔοικα γοῦν τούτου γε σμικρῷ τινι αὐτῷ τούτῳ σοφώτερος εἶναι, ὅτι ἃ μὴ οἶδα οὐδὲ οἴομαι εἰ

Peter222

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Re: Motorcycle in bus lane, confusing sign
« Reply #13 on: May 31, 2024, 05:50:16 pm »
Please. Listen to my advice and confirm your e mail address to me via a PM. Old cases are based on the arguments presented. My information is comprehensive.

Thanks... I emailed you yesterday, at 22.14. maybe it went to spam? Nevertheless I'll try again

Hippocrates

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Re: Motorcycle in bus lane, confusing sign
« Reply #14 on: May 31, 2024, 09:07:38 pm »
Please use this draft and put in your own words and then repost your version with the correct PCN details etc:

https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/hammersmith-and-fulham-being-in-a-bus-lane-shepherds-bush-rd-southbound-offside-/msg21134/#msg21134

No need to apologise being new! We all started in this crazy game from scratch!
« Last Edit: May 31, 2024, 09:13:09 pm by Hippocrates »
There are known knowns which, had we known, we would never have wished to know. It is known that this also applies to the known unknowns. However, when one attends a hearing, Mr Rumsfeld's idea that there are also unknown unknowns fails to apply because, anyone who is in the know, knows that unknown unknowns are purely a deception otherwise known as an aleatory experience or also known as a lottery. I know that I know this to be a fact and, in this knowledge, I know that I am fully prepared to present my case but, paradoxically, in full knowledge that the unknown unknowns may well apply in view of some adjudicators' lack of knowing what they ought to know through no fault of their own.

"Hippocrates"

ἔοικα γοῦν τούτου γε σμικρῷ τινι αὐτῷ τούτῳ σοφώτερος εἶναι, ὅτι ἃ μὴ οἶδα οὐδὲ οἴομαι εἰ