3. Manchester Council Oxford Road Bus Lane Intervention
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Re: Manchester Council Oxford Road Bus Lane Intervention
« Reply #15 on: »
I have had correspondence from the lease company and they confirmed liability was transferred on the 10.06.24
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Re: Manchester Council Oxford Road Bus Lane Intervention
« Reply #16 on: »
Quote from: D D on June 26, 2024, 12:00:14 am
I have had correspondence from the lease company and they confirmed liability was transferred on the 10.06.24
Ask them if they've received anything else from the council since then.
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
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Re: Manchester Council Oxford Road Bus Lane Intervention
« Reply #17 on: »
Quote from: cp8759 on June 26, 2024, 10:30:06 pm
Quote from: D D on June 26, 2024, 12:00:14 am
I have had correspondence from the lease company and they confirmed liability was transferred on the 10.06.24
Ask them if they've received anything else from the council since then.

I have now received a PCN in my details today.

Date of this pcn is now 27.06.24
Date previous pcn was cancelled 26.06.24

What shall the next move be on this one?

Shall I still find out if the lease company received anything back from the transfer?
« Last Edit: June 28, 2024, 04:07:08 pm by D D »
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Re: Manchester Council Oxford Road Bus Lane Intervention
« Reply #18 on: »
@D D well the obvious next step is to make a representation saying the contravention did not occur, this should be done within 14 days from the date of issue to ensure the discount is reoffered. I know the discount period is 21 days, but we have no reliable data to say whether the discount will be extended if you make representations between days 15 and 21. Making representations on day 14 from the date of issue (not service) would be the safest approach that buys the most time.

That being said, to know your chances on appeal to the tribunal (where the discount is off the table and it's all or nothing) we need to see the terms and conditions of the lease agreement, I'm not sure we've seen this yet?

Just redact your personal details and make sure to include all the small print in the terms and conditions.

You also want to know if the hire company received anything from the council, if they did not then you need this to be confirmed in writing.
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
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Re: Manchester Council Oxford Road Bus Lane Intervention
« Reply #19 on: »
Quote from: cp8759 on June 30, 2024, 03:35:02 pm


That being said, to know your chances on appeal to the tribunal (where the discount is off the table and it's all or nothing) we need to see the terms and conditions of the lease agreement, I'm not sure we've seen this yet?

Just redact your personal details and make sure to include all the small print in the terms and conditions.


@cp8759

I have attached the policy I have received from which is the DB link below.

Let me know your thoughts?

I have noted the date in diary for the representation reminder ..

https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/knixs9376bcu7k2q3v6r5/EV-Car-Policy-Febuary-2023.pdf?rlkey=i7dtxqk8f0f0y96ydmph64al1&dl=0
« Last Edit: July 05, 2024, 07:44:22 pm by D D »
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Re: Manchester Council Oxford Road Bus Lane Intervention
« Reply #20 on: »
Quote from: D D on July 05, 2024, 07:39:10 pm
I have attached the policy I have received from which is the DB link below.
That's just a company policy, it's not a lease agreement. Have you personally signed a lease agreement with anyone? If not, it's very hard to see how you could be personally liable for any penalty.
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
Re: Manchester Council Oxford Road Bus Lane Intervention
« Reply #21 on: »
Quote from: cp8759 on July 06, 2024, 06:28:44 pm
Quote from: D D on July 05, 2024, 07:39:10 pm
I have attached the policy I have received from which is the DB link below.
That's just a company policy, it's not a lease agreement. Have you personally signed a lease agreement with anyone? If not, it's very hard to see how you could be personally liable for any penalty.

Thanks for taking the time to overlook.

I will request a copy of the lease agreement and see what they come back with.
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Re: Manchester Council Oxford Road Bus Lane Intervention
« Reply #22 on: »
@cp8759

I love how they give you options to basically admit you was the driver at the time but not anything else to say I am the driver but this wasn’t the case.

I know it’s lte on the rep I’ve had a killer of a week at work and was our daughters prom last night so there’s been a lot of time helping with the school event prep.

Shall I select I was the driver what’s selected below?

https://flic.kr/p/2q3UtNP
« Last Edit: July 13, 2024, 01:39:14 pm by D D »
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Re: Manchester Council Oxford Road Bus Lane Intervention
« Reply #23 on: »
If the PCN you have now received states the same grounds of appeal as the one sent to the hire company, then the PCN appears to be missing these statutory grounds of appeal. Therefore you can tick the appeal ground that a procedural impropriety has occurred.
 
(g)the order which is alleged to have been contravened in relation to the vehicle concerned, except where it is an order to which Part 6 of Schedule 9 to the RTRA 1984 applies, is invalid;
 
(i)the enforcement notice should not have been served because—
 
(i)the penalty charge has already been paid in full, or
(ii)the penalty charge has been paid, reduced by the amount of any discount set in accordance with Schedule 9 to the TMA 2004, by the applicable date as specified in paragraph 1(3) of Schedule 3 to the 2022 General Regulations.
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Re: Manchester Council Oxford Road Bus Lane Intervention
« Reply #24 on: »
Quote from: Phantomcrusader on July 13, 2024, 03:59:18 pm
If the PCN you have now received states the same grounds of appeal as the one sent to the hire company, then the PCN appears to be missing these statutory grounds of appeal. Therefore you can tick the appeal ground that a procedural impropriety has occurred.
 
(g)the order which is alleged to have been contravened in relation to the vehicle concerned, except where it is an order to which Part 6 of Schedule 9 to the RTRA 1984 applies, is invalid;
 
(i)the enforcement notice should not have been served because—
 
(i)the penalty charge has already been paid in full, or
(ii)the penalty charge has been paid, reduced by the amount of any discount set in accordance with Schedule 9 to the TMA 2004, by the applicable date as specified in paragraph 1(3) of Schedule 3 to the 2022 General Regulations.

Appreciate your response, upon making the representation the only options I have to move forward to entering my written representation are the following,

I am the registered keeper of this vehicle

I am the registered keeper of this vehicle and the driver at the time of the contravention

I am not the registered keeper of this vehicle but was the driver at the time of the contravention

I was not the owner of the vehicle at the time of the contravention I sold or bought the vehicle before or after the time of the contravention)

We are a Hire and Lease Company

Which one would be best to select here?

Regards
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Re: Manchester Council Oxford Road Bus Lane Intervention
« Reply #25 on: »
I asked for the lease agreement from the company again the other day and they just sent me the same info I attached recently via the drop box link.
A generic policy it seems.
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Re: Manchester Council Oxford Road Bus Lane Intervention
« Reply #26 on: »
Quote from: Phantomcrusader on July 13, 2024, 03:59:18 pm
If the PCN you have now received states the same grounds of appeal as the one sent to the hire company, then the PCN appears to be missing these statutory grounds of appeal. Therefore you can tick the appeal ground that a procedural impropriety has occurred.
 
(g)the order which is alleged to have been contravened in relation to the vehicle concerned, except where it is an order to which Part 6 of Schedule 9 to the RTRA 1984 applies, is invalid;
 
(i)the enforcement notice should not have been served because—
 
(i)the penalty charge has already been paid in full, or
(ii)the penalty charge has been paid, reduced by the amount of any discount set in accordance with Schedule 9 to the TMA 2004, by the applicable date as specified in paragraph 1(3) of Schedule 3 to the 2022 General Regulations.

Hi still not done anything with this yet as not heard back from anyone here :/

You mentioned already via the procedural impropriety

This option is not available on the Manchester web portal only these options I’ve listed below,

I am the registered keeper of this vehicle

I am the registered keeper of this vehicle and the driver at the time of the contravention

I am not the registered keeper of this vehicle but was the driver at the time of the contravention

I was not the owner of the vehicle at the time of the contravention I sold or bought the vehicle before or after the time of the contravention)

We are a Hire and Lease company

Shall I appeal via mail? Take copies and send via tracked service?

Thanks
« Last Edit: July 21, 2024, 12:20:13 am by D D »
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Re: Manchester Council Oxford Road Bus Lane Intervention
« Reply #27 on: »
The listed statutory grounds of appeal on the PCN are missing these grounds.
(g)the order which is alleged to have been contravened in relation to the vehicle concerned, except where it is an order to which Part 6 of Schedule 9 to the RTRA 1984 applies, is invalid;
(i)the enforcement notice should not have been served because—
(i)the penalty charge has already been paid in full, or
(ii)the penalty charge has been paid, reduced by the amount of any discount set in accordance with Schedule 9 to the TMA 2004, by the applicable date as specified in paragraph 1(3) of Schedule 3 to the 2022 General Regulations.

Also, the bit about being owner of the vehicle is misleading. It says you must supply evidence but the regulations make no such requirement. You must only supply evidence if the information is known to you. The way they have worded it makes it sound like you have no grounds unless you can supply the evidence.


If the PCN does not contain all the info the law requires it to, the PCN is invalid and the penalty charge must be cancelled.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2024, 01:07:08 am by Phantomcrusader »
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Re: Manchester Council Oxford Road Bus Lane Intervention
« Reply #28 on: »
Quote from: Phantomcrusader on July 21, 2024, 12:52:35 am
The listed statutory grounds of appeal on the PCN are missing these grounds.
(g)the order which is alleged to have been contravened in relation to the vehicle concerned, except where it is an order to which Part 6 of Schedule 9 to the RTRA 1984 applies, is invalid;
(i)the enforcement notice should not have been served because—
(i)the penalty charge has already been paid in full, or
(ii)the penalty charge has been paid, reduced by the amount of any discount set in accordance with Schedule 9 to the TMA 2004, by the applicable date as specified in paragraph 1(3) of Schedule 3 to the 2022 General Regulations.

Also, the bit about being owner of the vehicle is misleading. It says you must supply evidence but the regulations make no such requirement. You must only supply evidence if the information is known to you. The way they have worded it makes it sound like you have no grounds unless you can supply the evidence.


If the PCN does not contain all the info the law requires it to, the PCN is invalid and the penalty charge must be cancelled.

I understand what you have explained thank you.

But what I don’t understand is the methods of selection, the website is different to the paper pcn appeal it does not include procedural impropriety only the mail one has this.

So would it be best to make the paper appeal sent via tracked service and hold copy’s?
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Re: Manchester Council Oxford Road Bus Lane Intervention
« Reply #29 on: »
If the online options has this one "the penalty charge exceeded the amount applicable in the circumstances of the case" then select it instead. Whatever you select or submit, they have a duty to consider.
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  3. Manchester Council Oxford Road Bus Lane Intervention