3. Southwark provided incorrect payment details on PCN
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Southwark provided incorrect payment details on PCN
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Hello all,

Hope you're enjoying the sunshine today if you have it  :) . I stupidly forgot there was a traffic exclusion outside a local school in rush hour and I drove through it. Fair cop! BUT I was just about to pay the charge (this is the last day at 50% discount as it is within 14 days of the date on the PCN) but Southwark have given an incorrect web address to make payment. When you enter the one they provide on the PCN you get a 'page not found'. They have given: www.southwark.gov.uk/onlinepayments and this does not work. So my question is: Is this a procedural impropriety? I have looked online and can't see any specific references to a failure to provide correct details of means to pay, but my instinct is it should be a PI. Does anyone know? Thanks so much for your advice in advance!
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Re: Southwark provided incorrect payment details on PCN
« Reply #1 on: »
Please do not pay it as the PCN contains a fatal error. Let's see it please.
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I REGRET THAT, FOR THE PRESENT, I AM UNABLE TO TAKE ON ANY MORE CASES AS A REPRESENTATIVE AT THE LONDON TRIBUNALS. THIS IS FOR BOTH PERSONAL AND LEGAL REASONS. PLEASE DO NOT PM ME UNLESS YOU HAVE POSTED YOUR THREAD ON THE FORUM AND I WILL ATTEMPT TO GIVE ADVICE.


If you do not challenge, you join "The Mugged Club".

cp8759 and mrmustard are true geniuses. I know my place in the hierarchy of The Three Musketeers. 😊 "The Clinician", "The Gentleman" and "The Showman"

There are "known knowns" which we may never have wished to know. This applies to them. But in the field the idea that there are also "unknown unknowns" doesn't apply as they hide in the aleatoric lottery. I know this is true and need to be prepared knowing the "unknown unknowns" may well apply.

To Socrates from "Hippocrates"
Re: Southwark provided incorrect payment details on PCN
« Reply #2 on: »
Hippocrates got there first !

Anyway, the Civil Enforcement of Road Traffic Contraventions (Representations and Appeals) (England) Regulations 2022 define a procedural impropriety as follows: -

Quote
(2) A “procedural impropriety” means a failure by an enforcement authority to observe any requirement imposed on it by—

(a)the TMA 2004,

(b)the 2022 General Regulations, or

(c)these Regulations,

in relation to the imposition or recovery of a penalty charge or other sum.

So I suspect printing the wrong internet address isn't.

However both the above regulations, and The Civil Enforcement of Road Traffic Contraventions (Approved Devices, Charging Guidelines and General Provisions) (England) Regulations 2022 have something about payment in Schedule 2 - see "regulatory matters"
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2022/71/schedule/2/made
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Re: Southwark provided incorrect payment details on PCN
« Reply #3 on: »
thank you so much both for taking the time to reply - yes it is hard to know whether this comes under 'regulatory matters' even though it is not explicitly noted that the issuing authority has to provide valid payment details. I should have thought that was implicitly contained within the regulatory matters, but again - hard to know! Here is the relevant bit. My instinct is that a magistrate would take a dim view of a Council not facilitating payment. But I may be wrong!



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Re: Southwark provided incorrect payment details on PCN
« Reply #4 on: »
As above, post all sides of the PCN, redacting only yr name & address.
For guidance on posting docs see here
https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/read-this-first-before-posting-your-case!-this-section-is-for-council-tfl-dartme/

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Re: Southwark provided incorrect payment details on PCN
« Reply #5 on: »
Page 1 of the PCN please. Procedural impropriety is a red herring.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2025, 02:45:47 pm by Hippocrates »
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I REGRET THAT, FOR THE PRESENT, I AM UNABLE TO TAKE ON ANY MORE CASES AS A REPRESENTATIVE AT THE LONDON TRIBUNALS. THIS IS FOR BOTH PERSONAL AND LEGAL REASONS. PLEASE DO NOT PM ME UNLESS YOU HAVE POSTED YOUR THREAD ON THE FORUM AND I WILL ATTEMPT TO GIVE ADVICE.


If you do not challenge, you join "The Mugged Club".

cp8759 and mrmustard are true geniuses. I know my place in the hierarchy of The Three Musketeers. 😊 "The Clinician", "The Gentleman" and "The Showman"

There are "known knowns" which we may never have wished to know. This applies to them. But in the field the idea that there are also "unknown unknowns" doesn't apply as they hide in the aleatoric lottery. I know this is true and need to be prepared knowing the "unknown unknowns" may well apply.

To Socrates from "Hippocrates"
Re: Southwark provided incorrect payment details on PCN
« Reply #6 on: »
Everything else in the PCN is by the book which is why I haven't posted it. The only error Southwark has made is not to provide working/accurate details for how to pay the fine.
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Re: Southwark provided incorrect payment details on PCN
« Reply #7 on: »
Quote from: worlingham on February 02, 2025, 04:38:26 pm
Everything else in the PCN is by the book which is why I haven't posted it. The only error Southwark has made is not to provide working/accurate details for how to pay the fine.
OK, but let us see it, anyway.
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Re: Southwark provided incorrect payment details on PCN
« Reply #8 on: »
As per Hippocrates, moving traffic contraventions don't engage the TMA regs quoted neither do they make provision for 'procedural impropriety'.

BUT I was just about to pay the charge (this is the last day at 50% discount as it is within 14 days of the date on the PCN) but Southwark have given an incorrect web address to make payment. When you enter the one they provide on the PCN you get a 'page not found'.

So did you pay and if so how and at what rate?

IMO, if you were actually prevented from paying at the discount then these grounds apply:


(e)that the penalty charge exceeded the amount applicable in the circumstances of the case.

The circumstances being that the payment to (vii)the address to which payment of the penalty charge must be sent; was not possible.
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Re: Southwark provided incorrect payment details on PCN
« Reply #9 on: »
Quote from: worlingham on February 02, 2025, 04:38:26 pm
Everything else in the PCN is by the book which is why I haven't posted it. The only error Southwark has made is not to provide working/accurate details for how to pay the fine.

I do not wish to appear to be rude, but how do you know it is by the book?  If you come on here and expect us to help, then it appears you do not need any if you are not going to post the PCN.   ;D
Logged
I REGRET THAT, FOR THE PRESENT, I AM UNABLE TO TAKE ON ANY MORE CASES AS A REPRESENTATIVE AT THE LONDON TRIBUNALS. THIS IS FOR BOTH PERSONAL AND LEGAL REASONS. PLEASE DO NOT PM ME UNLESS YOU HAVE POSTED YOUR THREAD ON THE FORUM AND I WILL ATTEMPT TO GIVE ADVICE.


If you do not challenge, you join "The Mugged Club".

cp8759 and mrmustard are true geniuses. I know my place in the hierarchy of The Three Musketeers. 😊 "The Clinician", "The Gentleman" and "The Showman"

There are "known knowns" which we may never have wished to know. This applies to them. But in the field the idea that there are also "unknown unknowns" doesn't apply as they hide in the aleatoric lottery. I know this is true and need to be prepared knowing the "unknown unknowns" may well apply.

To Socrates from "Hippocrates"
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