Author Topic: Lewisham, Code 53J, Pedestrian Zone, Upper Brockley Rd / Ashby Rd  (Read 173 times)

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FishBoy

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Hi, my son had his bike forcibly removed from him on the way back from an after-school music lesson, he was shaken but thankfully unhurt. The police have classed it as robbery from a minor and are therefore investigating. In the following days I felt I had to do something, so visited the area to see if I could identify any useful CCTV and maybe even spot the bike and / or culprit (yes, I know...). It was during one of these trips that I inadvertently drove down a pedestrian zone road - I was completely unaware until I got to the end and saw the 'end of zone' signs. I drove back around the block, absolutely dumbfounded as to how I could have missed any signs, then realised that the likely cause was that the road I was originally heading along was blocked by roadworks, which effectively forced me to turn left into the pedestrian road, and by that point the signs were so high that they were impossible to see from the seat of a car.
 
Many thanks in advance for any help you can provide, this just feels so unfair as I didn't know the area, was trying to take some positive action following an upsetting crime, the road ahead was closed and the signs just were just too high to see!
 
I've posted the front & back page of the PCN (there was also the standard "How to challenge" sheet). I noticed that the "PCN Spreadsheet" shows that Lewisham have a known flaw of omitting a postal address for payment, is this still a valid / effective method for cancellation?
 
Incidentally I've calculated that the 50% discount expires this Mon 11/11 (14 days from 29/10) but the online portal is showing Mon 18/11?
 
Link to Google Streetview of the location, although it appears to be from 2015 before the restrictions were introduced -
 
https://maps.app.goo.gl/2vfqd3kt56x6EQWg9
 
I've also posted images of:
 
(1) the view I had when approaching the roadworks / junction - the signs are to the left, you can see how high they are (and also that they have no illumination - do the regulations state they should and is this a ground for cancellation?)
 
(2) the view I had when realising the road ahead was closed and I would have to take a different route - note the signs at this point are not visible, only the inviting one way signs...
 
(3) the view down the pedestrian zone road
 

 

 

 

 

 




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stamfordman

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Re: Lewisham, Code 53J, Pedestrian Zone, Upper Brockley Rd / Ashby Rd
« Reply #1 on: November 08, 2024, 06:34:25 pm »
Video shows roadworks but diversion sign says go right? The one-way directional signs sort of invite one to go left though and clash somewhat with the restriction signs. We do see some appeals allowed where drivers are turning left into these new restrictions. Is there an advance sign?

« Last Edit: November 08, 2024, 06:42:18 pm by stamfordman »

FishBoy

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Re: Lewisham, Code 53J, Pedestrian Zone, Upper Brockley Rd / Ashby Rd
« Reply #2 on: November 08, 2024, 07:01:34 pm »
Thanks for the reply.

Yes, I only noticed that diversion sign when posting these, but you can see how the road bends to the left, which would have meant reversing / maneuvering to then go right. And as at the time my intention was to continue straight on and then turn left later on, it seemed sensible to go left here instead.

On checking later there is an advance sign on the right of the road, partially obstructed by a tree - image below. But, again, as I was planning on continuing straight on I would have been past it before realising I couldn't, so it wouldn't have been any use?

Many thanks.



Hippocrates

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Re: Lewisham, Code 53J, Pedestrian Zone, Upper Brockley Rd / Ashby Rd
« Reply #3 on: November 08, 2024, 09:01:34 pm »
Please give me time to deal with the technical issues! Can you screenshot what the status quo says re payment and increase?

I will draft something later when I have looked at the video etc.

There are issues with the PCN. In fact, I am thinking of "accidentally" doing one so I can take it to the High Court.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2024, 09:25:17 pm by Hippocrates »
There are known knowns which, had we known, we would never have wished to know. It is known that this also applies to the known unknowns. However, when one attends a hearing, Mr Rumsfeld's idea that there are also unknown unknowns fails to apply because, anyone who is in the know, knows that unknown unknowns are purely a deception otherwise known as an aleatory experience or also known as a lottery. I know that I know this to be a fact and, in this knowledge, I know that I am fully prepared to present my case but, paradoxically, in full knowledge that the unknown unknowns may well apply.
"Hippocrates"

ἔοικα γοῦν τούτου γε σμικρῷ τινι αὐτῷ τούτῳ σοφώτερος εἶναι, ὅτι ἃ μὴ οἶδα οὐδὲ οἴομαι ε

Pressman

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Re: Lewisham, Code 53J, Pedestrian Zone, Upper Brockley Rd / Ashby Rd
« Reply #4 on: November 08, 2024, 09:05:27 pm »
pls delete
« Last Edit: November 08, 2024, 09:06:58 pm by Pressman »

FishBoy

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Re: Lewisham, Code 53J, Pedestrian Zone, Upper Brockley Rd / Ashby Rd
« Reply #5 on: November 08, 2024, 09:17:07 pm »
Thanks Hippocrates.

If by the "status quo" you mean the online portal thing, then it is below.

If it's something else, you may need to direct me!



Hippocrates

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Re: Lewisham, Code 53J, Pedestrian Zone, Upper Brockley Rd / Ashby Rd
« Reply #6 on: November 08, 2024, 09:20:46 pm »
Correct. Sorry but I am really busy and will need to check the dates in case they are incorrect with your PCN.

14 days from 29th = 11th November. So the date is wrong re the increase.

Incidentally I've calculated that the 50% discount expires this Mon 11/11 (14 days from 29/10) but the online portal is showing Mon 18/11?

We won a case like this a few weeks ago: chaseman v Lambeth. There also seems to be a confusing plethora of signage.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2024, 09:34:45 pm by Hippocrates »
There are known knowns which, had we known, we would never have wished to know. It is known that this also applies to the known unknowns. However, when one attends a hearing, Mr Rumsfeld's idea that there are also unknown unknowns fails to apply because, anyone who is in the know, knows that unknown unknowns are purely a deception otherwise known as an aleatory experience or also known as a lottery. I know that I know this to be a fact and, in this knowledge, I know that I am fully prepared to present my case but, paradoxically, in full knowledge that the unknown unknowns may well apply.
"Hippocrates"

ἔοικα γοῦν τούτου γε σμικρῷ τινι αὐτῷ τούτῳ σοφώτερος εἶναι, ὅτι ἃ μὴ οἶδα οὐδὲ οἴομαι ε

FishBoy

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Re: Lewisham, Code 53J, Pedestrian Zone, Upper Brockley Rd / Ashby Rd
« Reply #7 on: November 08, 2024, 09:33:48 pm »
That's what I thought, but then wondered if maybe it was working days, or from the date the letter was expected to be received, or...??

Is the lack of postal address for payment still a valid point?

Many thanks.

Hippocrates

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Re: Lewisham, Code 53J, Pedestrian Zone, Upper Brockley Rd / Ashby Rd
« Reply #8 on: November 08, 2024, 09:48:59 pm »
Used to be. I will draft tomorrow.
There are known knowns which, had we known, we would never have wished to know. It is known that this also applies to the known unknowns. However, when one attends a hearing, Mr Rumsfeld's idea that there are also unknown unknowns fails to apply because, anyone who is in the know, knows that unknown unknowns are purely a deception otherwise known as an aleatory experience or also known as a lottery. I know that I know this to be a fact and, in this knowledge, I know that I am fully prepared to present my case but, paradoxically, in full knowledge that the unknown unknowns may well apply.
"Hippocrates"

ἔοικα γοῦν τούτου γε σμικρῷ τινι αὐτῷ τούτῳ σοφώτερος εἶναι, ὅτι ἃ μὴ οἶδα οὐδὲ οἴομαι ε

FishBoy

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Re: Lewisham, Code 53J, Pedestrian Zone, Upper Brockley Rd / Ashby Rd
« Reply #9 on: November 11, 2024, 03:34:40 pm »
Hi Hippocrates,

I appreciate you are super busy, just wondering if you have had a chance to draft anything yet for this?

The online portal is still showing that the PCN will be at the discount stage until 18/11, despite our calculations being that is today.

Many thanks.

Hippocrates

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Re: Lewisham, Code 53J, Pedestrian Zone, Upper Brockley Rd / Ashby Rd
« Reply #10 on: November 11, 2024, 07:30:16 pm »
Sorry. I will try tomorrow when I get back home from the Tribunal.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2024, 07:30:21 am by Hippocrates »
There are known knowns which, had we known, we would never have wished to know. It is known that this also applies to the known unknowns. However, when one attends a hearing, Mr Rumsfeld's idea that there are also unknown unknowns fails to apply because, anyone who is in the know, knows that unknown unknowns are purely a deception otherwise known as an aleatory experience or also known as a lottery. I know that I know this to be a fact and, in this knowledge, I know that I am fully prepared to present my case but, paradoxically, in full knowledge that the unknown unknowns may well apply.
"Hippocrates"

ἔοικα γοῦν τούτου γε σμικρῷ τινι αὐτῷ τούτῳ σοφώτερος εἶναι, ὅτι ἃ μὴ οἶδα οὐδὲ οἴομαι ε

Hippocrates

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Re: Lewisham, Code 53J, Pedestrian Zone, Upper Brockley Rd / Ashby Rd
« Reply #11 on: November 12, 2024, 07:46:01 am »
Sorry. I will try tomorrow when I get back home from the Tribunal.

Dear Lewisham

Ref:  PCN                   VRM

I make the following formal representations against the said PCN:

1. There is a confusing plethora of signage at the location and the actual restriction signs are rather high.

2. There is no advanced warning signage before the junction which is inherently unfair as the council does provide such at many other locations.

3. I enclose a screenshot of the current status quo con concerning payment and refer you to Case no 2240362722 in this regard. The dates are clearly wrong.

4. Finally, I make a collateral challenge against the wording of the PCN which "acts as notice to owner" which is a conflation of two legislations and, considering the inclusion of a considerable part re 56 days etc - this belongs to parking legislation - it is perfectly reasonable to expect you to include the grounds of appeal from that legislation in addition.

In light of the above

Please cancel the PCN
There are known knowns which, had we known, we would never have wished to know. It is known that this also applies to the known unknowns. However, when one attends a hearing, Mr Rumsfeld's idea that there are also unknown unknowns fails to apply because, anyone who is in the know, knows that unknown unknowns are purely a deception otherwise known as an aleatory experience or also known as a lottery. I know that I know this to be a fact and, in this knowledge, I know that I am fully prepared to present my case but, paradoxically, in full knowledge that the unknown unknowns may well apply.
"Hippocrates"

ἔοικα γοῦν τούτου γε σμικρῷ τινι αὐτῷ τούτῳ σοφώτερος εἶναι, ὅτι ἃ μὴ οἶδα οὐδὲ οἴομαι ε

FishBoy

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Re: Lewisham, Code 53J, Pedestrian Zone, Upper Brockley Rd / Ashby Rd
« Reply #12 on: November 15, 2024, 04:26:57 am »
Thanks Hippocrates, apologies for not responding sooner but for some reason I didn't receive a notification for your latest post.

So should I just copy & paste your comments into the appeal section on the Lewisham website?

Just one query - there is an advance warning sign, but it's blue, is on the right hand side of the road, and it's partially obscured by a tree. Does this change matters?

And in your opinion, what are the chances of a successful appeal?

Many thanks.

Hippocrates

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Re: Lewisham, Code 53J, Pedestrian Zone, Upper Brockley Rd / Ashby Rd
« Reply #13 on: November 15, 2024, 09:24:44 am »
Yes. Add the tree issue. Chances depends on their response. But please put everything in and check my draft for one typo con concerning.
There are known knowns which, had we known, we would never have wished to know. It is known that this also applies to the known unknowns. However, when one attends a hearing, Mr Rumsfeld's idea that there are also unknown unknowns fails to apply because, anyone who is in the know, knows that unknown unknowns are purely a deception otherwise known as an aleatory experience or also known as a lottery. I know that I know this to be a fact and, in this knowledge, I know that I am fully prepared to present my case but, paradoxically, in full knowledge that the unknown unknowns may well apply.
"Hippocrates"

ἔοικα γοῦν τούτου γε σμικρῷ τινι αὐτῷ τούτῳ σοφώτερος εἶναι, ὅτι ἃ μὴ οἶδα οὐδὲ οἴομαι ε

FishBoy

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Re: Lewisham, Code 53J, Pedestrian Zone, Upper Brockley Rd / Ashby Rd
« Reply #14 on: November 16, 2024, 05:03:54 pm »
@Hippocrates is the below ok for submission - I've made bold the changes I've made to your original text.

Also should the lack of postal address for payment be included?

Do I use the "contravention did not occur" option on the representation?

Dear Lewisham

Ref:  PCN ZY09848835      VRN GV59FUT

I make the following formal representations against the said PCN:

1. There is a confusing plethora of signage at the location and the actual restriction signs are so high as to make them unobservable from a driver's seated position.

2. The only advanced warning signage before the junction is on the right hand side, coloured blue, and obscured by a tree, which is inherently unfair as the council does provide such at many other locations.

3. I enclose a screenshot of the current status quo concerning payment and refer you to Case no 2240362722 in this regard. The dates are clearly wrong.

4. Finally, I make a collateral challenge against the wording of the PCN which "acts as notice to owner" which is a conflation of two legislations and, considering the inclusion of a considerable part re 56 days etc - this belongs to parking legislation - it is perfectly reasonable to expect you to include the grounds of appeal from that legislation in addition.

In light of the above

Please cancel the PCN
« Last Edit: November 16, 2024, 05:08:34 pm by FishBoy »