Author Topic: Leeds Council - 34J Bus Lane PCN - Headrow JNC Butts Court  (Read 1071 times)

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Leeds Council - 34J Bus Lane PCN - Headrow JNC Butts Court
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Hello

I have received a PCN for driving in a bus Lane. I was driving down the Headrow in the direction of westgate.

I have attached the PCN below.

I have a few questions regarding challenging this notice. Would like to know if i have any valid grounds of appeal and winning. Also curious what are the rules if someone stops and turns around when caught in a bus lane or when you go down a bus lane that is empty, no buses around and quiet roads.

I will go back to the location to take photos, but in the meantime i am going off google maps (which i believe is accurate as of current/ time of contravention).

1) The bus gate came in force at 7am sunday (hardly rush hour), i got done at 7.05. Is there any appeal based on being so close to the time it activated. Any sort of grace period? As you would already be set in that direction (caught up at the several traffic lights prior). Time on clock not being accurate etc.

2) As can be seen from google maps, the sign is hidden behind lampposts Infront. Although it can be seen, cant read what it says and the details are the important part. I dont believe there are any prior warning signs (just the signage at the point of bus gate being on the floor), i do see some on google maps but again will go out and double check if this still there. You can read it but only when right upto it. However at this stage you are committed to going down the road unless you stop dead and reverse back into a busy junction. It is also quite far into the pavement and not by road side as you would expect. If it was on the lamppost closer to the road it would be much clearer. 

3) As can be seen from the evidence my sun visor is down (completely my fault but to block sun) and so again makes it difficult to read signage high above road level when closer to signs. While from far it is either blocked from view by lampposts or illegible from distance.

4) Have read through a few other cases on here regarding leeds and seen some talk about 'the statutory ground of appeal at regulation 5(4)(g) of The Civil Enforcement of Road Traffic Contraventions (Representations and Appeals) (England) Regulations 2022 is missing from the PCN that has been served. That is a procedural impropriety on the basis of which the penalty charge must be cancelled.'

No idea what this means but my PCN looks exactly the same, thus wondering if this alone is sufficient?

PCN:
https://1drv.ms/a/s!AsX7Aj9H3JFyvhkMnOxLgZ5j6abB?e=nSGtkG

Google images:
https://www.google.com/maps/@53.7994139,-1.5448876,3a,75y,279.53h,84.69t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1scKRamh9UhENBCoId2b1QcQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu

https://www.google.com/maps/@53.7993726,-1.544506,3a,54y,276.94h,84.8t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1seDsRkfdARYzVmO9Xe-Ig5A!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu

Regards

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Re: Leeds Council - 34J Bus Lane PCN - Headrow JNC Butts Court
« Reply #1 on: »
OK, but you need to also explain how you missed this sign
https://maps.app.goo.gl/VUG9m7CH24SNpzCb8


Re: Leeds Council - 34J Bus Lane PCN - Headrow JNC Butts Court
« Reply #2 on: »
Fair enough never saw that at all. I was in the right lane initially as two buses on the left. Taken off from and stopped at the bus stop. Would have been obstructed by the buses. If i had seen it then that is a fair enough advanced warning.

Got no way of proving this though, so i have requested that they send me cctv. Hopefully it shows further down the road from the bus lane (where i got snapped). If from the correct angle then it should hopefully show the buses in the left lane which obstructed that sign.

If not then is an appeal pointless on any of the other facts? Again dont really understand point 4 i made, but is that not enough as a stand alone? Or is that more of an additional point after making an appeal based on something else? ??? 

Thanks

Re: Leeds Council - 34J Bus Lane PCN - Headrow JNC Butts Court
« Reply #3 on: »
Although they may show you a video "proving" the offence, the bottom line is it is their word against yours. The camera is up in the air, you have to see the signs at ground level. So, If you say you couldn't see the advance sign because of bus traffic then that is a valid line of approach.  You then demonstrate the lack of visibility of the bus gate entry signs.  There was huge hullabaloo in Manchester on a similar situation, and the adjudicator exoriated the council for its very bad signage. So if you feel like standing your ground, proceed, but remember the full penalty is in play, no discount at adjudication.

Re: Leeds Council - 34J Bus Lane PCN - Headrow JNC Butts Court
« Reply #4 on: »
^

Re: Leeds Council - 34J Bus Lane PCN - Headrow JNC Butts Court
« Reply #5 on: »
@killy I can't get the PCN to load, can you please try re-posting it using imgur.com or google drive?

Frankly I think your strongest argument will be on the signage.
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

Re: Leeds Council - 34J Bus Lane PCN - Headrow JNC Butts Court
« Reply #6 on: »
@killy I can't get the PCN to load, can you please try re-posting it using imgur.com or google drive?

Frankly I think your strongest argument will be on the signage.


Im not sure how imgur works, but the following should work. Please let me know if you can/cannot view and if needed i will look into and try an alternative.

https://1drv.ms/a/s!AsX7Aj9H3JFyvhkMnOxLgZ5j6abB?e=ofs2Lh

Thanks

Re: Leeds Council - 34J Bus Lane PCN - Headrow JNC Butts Court
« Reply #7 on: »
I have been back to the location and taken a few photos. Not perfect but i tried to recreate the scene.

https://1drv.ms/a/s!AsX7Aj9H3JFyv2feVvgOZdORL5z2?e=ctbBbj

As you can see the sign just after the bus lane starts is set a fair bit into the pavement rather than being right next to the road on the edge of the pavement. It is obstructed by several lampposts, traffic lights, signs etc in front of it. While it can be partially seen from certain angles i could not see it and definitely couldn't make out what was written or specific times while driving and concentrating for other hazards.

Also i have taken pictures of the sign prior to the bus lane / junction. As you can see it is completely blocked by busses setting off from and stopping at the bus stop. This was completely blocked to me. But even in the photo of the recreation you can see the sign is not visible until almost parallel to it at which stage you couldn't read it, even if you did decide to take eyes off road and look left.

In terms of PCN, as i say it does not include the option as i have seen stated in other posts as a valid reason for challenging. But 2bh not sure on this apart from other comments i have read.

Thanks

Re: Leeds Council - 34J Bus Lane PCN - Headrow JNC Butts Court
« Reply #8 on: »
The photos supplied with the PCN show no traffic at all, so your argument about not seeing the signs may fall on stony ground.

Re: Leeds Council - 34J Bus Lane PCN - Headrow JNC Butts Court
« Reply #9 on: »
I did request footage before the road but they only have the footage of the actual bus lane camera. The tree obstructs where the bus was. Can faintly see a light shining through. But yh i dont have any concrete proof of the bus being there. But at the same time i don't think there evidence proves it was not.

To be clear the bus was obstructing the sign prior to the bus lane. So we are talking in the area obstructed by the tree and further back out of the frame of the picture. The bus stop is in the left lane (in direction of my travel). Can only really see the right hand lane in their evidence.

Was no way for me to take video at the time to prove this (not that i knew i had been caught and would receive a fine at the time).

If i dont stand a chance due to lack of evidence i will pay the lower amount and be done with it. But out of principle i would rather defend myself as i never saw the signs and while they are in place they are not clear/ completely visible. I will go with the consensus and happy to follow advice of those on here with experience.

Re: Leeds Council - 34J Bus Lane PCN - Headrow JNC Butts Court
« Reply #10 on: »
The regulatory signs are rubbish, but what's the condition of this advance warning sign?
https://maps.app.goo.gl/cW9zcoUjbRfoghdU6

If it looks like this https://maps.app.goo.gl/x7MGWrWFUWqA9kDk9 then that would change things quite significantly.

In any case if you make a representation before the discount period expires the discount will be extended by the rejection in almost all cases, so you might as well have a go.
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order