Author Topic: Leeds City Council PCN Sunday Disabled bay Time clock "wrong"  (Read 500 times)

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Daim456

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Re: Leeds City Council PCN Sunday Disabled bay Time clock "wrong"
« Reply #15 on: March 16, 2024, 04:58:05 pm »
The Blue Badge parking clock is only legally required for yellow lines only but not for time limit bay - disabled bay or not.
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UKdave

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Re: Leeds City Council PCN Sunday Disabled bay Time clock "wrong"
« Reply #16 on: March 16, 2024, 06:29:43 pm »
{I don't know why I bother starting each retort with a courteous salutation & thanks. No one else seems to bother on here. Must be in my nature}

OK, you wrote ...

"... as regards the CEO a valid Blue Badge was not displayed. If it had been, then the 4-hour limit had been exceeded"

Nope

Even if the clock was set wrongly, and even if we accept the notion such an error 'invalidates' the BB ... the 4 hour limit had NOT been exceeded

Also, you pasted the following ...



Evidence of contravention
7.—(1) A penalty charge may only be imposed in respect of a parking contravention on the basis of—

(a)a record produced by an approved device, or

(b)information given by a civil enforcement officer as to conduct observed by that officer



In this case, the information that was 'given' by the civil enforcement officer was contradicted by an appeals officer

You said:

CEO was entitled to consider that the driver was trying to pinch an extra hour by setting the clock at a time later than when they parked

The appeals officer said:

"... In this case the clock card indicated that the vehicle was parked at 13:30 or 01:30 which indicates that the vehicle was parked for longer than 4 hours at 12:21 when the PCN was issued"

The CEO & the appeals officer are contradicting each other, & simply can't have it both ways

Anyway, I am [still] seeking solid constructive ADVICE please

{deep breath} Thanks for your ongoing attention, I appreciate it


 


UKdave

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Re: Leeds City Council PCN Sunday Disabled bay Time clock "wrong"
« Reply #17 on: March 16, 2024, 06:32:38 pm »
The Blue Badge parking clock is only legally required for yellow lines only but not for time limit bay - disabled bay or not.

Hi there. I appreciate your input. Can you please copy & paste the exact traffic order you are quoting?

THANK YOU

H C Andersen

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Re: Leeds City Council PCN Sunday Disabled bay Time clock "wrong"
« Reply #18 on: March 16, 2024, 08:22:17 pm »

You carry on as you will and make your reps as you want. I would still appreciate seeing the informal reps.


UKdave

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Re: Leeds City Council PCN Sunday Disabled bay Time clock "wrong"
« Reply #19 on: March 16, 2024, 09:13:12 pm »

You carry on as you will and make your reps as you want. I would still appreciate seeing the informal reps.

Sure no problem:

https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/qphof06gq8tmjrd2iir55/DCA.pdf?rlkey=7hlh11s9r49q4a847dv1hmstf&dl=0

H C Andersen

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Re: Leeds City Council PCN Sunday Disabled bay Time clock "wrong"
« Reply #20 on: March 17, 2024, 12:43:59 pm »
If you have time, look at what seems to be a blizzard of loading bay/BB threads which are currently being processed.

I was taken by an adjudicator's comment in one of the cases cited in support that this is a complex area and NOT one where adjudicators' decisions form anything like a consensus. It's further complicated by the facts in each case:

24/7 restriction or not;
Traffic order requires display of disc or not;
Was BB displayed with or without a disc;
Was this set correctly?

I do not think that it's possible, nor do I think it's prudent, to take an absolutist view and be prepared to go to the barricades armed with nothing more than this argument. 

Fowler1981

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Re: Leeds City Council PCN Sunday Disabled bay Time clock "wrong"
« Reply #21 on: March 17, 2024, 01:16:59 pm »
Is that a joke rep?? How do they expect CEO's to know every drivers personal circumstances??

And as far as I know CEO's aren't 'incentivized' at all. Makes no difference to them whether they issue one or fifty.

Surely that rep can't end up being a winner.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2024, 01:19:35 pm by Fowler1981 »

UKdave

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Re: Leeds City Council PCN Sunday Disabled bay Time clock "wrong"
« Reply #22 on: March 17, 2024, 02:01:01 pm »
How do they expect CEO's to know every drivers personal circumstances?

And as far as I know CEO's aren't 'incentivized' at all. Makes no difference to them whether they issue one or fifty.


Exactly, CEO's CANT know individual circumstances, and therefore, mitigating personal circumstances are a valid retort

Oh, and the use of "rarely" as opposed to "never" in the [public-facing] information below, clearly indicates this absolutely DOES happen

« Last Edit: March 17, 2024, 02:16:53 pm by UKdave »

UKdave

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Re: Leeds City Council PCN Sunday Disabled bay Time clock "wrong"
« Reply #23 on: March 17, 2024, 02:12:03 pm »
If you have time, look at what seems to be a blizzard of loading bay/BB threads which are currently being processed.

I was taken by an adjudicator's comment in one of the cases cited in support that this is a complex area and NOT one where adjudicators' decisions form anything like a consensus. It's further complicated by the facts in each case:

24/7 restriction or not;
Traffic order requires display of disc or not;
Was BB displayed with or without a disc;
Was this set correctly?

I do not think that it's possible, nor do I think it's prudent, to take an absolutist view and be prepared to go to the barricades armed with nothing more than this argument.

Thank You. Would you be kind enough to drop a direct link to [or title & date of] the comment thread from which you conclude that adjudicators' decisions often indicate anything but a consensus

Thank You

Fowler1981

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Re: Leeds City Council PCN Sunday Disabled bay Time clock "wrong"
« Reply #24 on: March 17, 2024, 02:44:09 pm »
QUOTE: Exactly, CEO's CANT know individual circumstances, and therefore, mitigating personal circumstances are a valid retort


Nah, that would make the clock absolutely pointless in every case due to CEO's having to assume every driver struggled with the time. I can see that argument being given very short shrift indeed. Presumably if you were going for that argument then you would need proof, like medical records for example.

Daim456

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Re: Leeds City Council PCN Sunday Disabled bay Time clock "wrong"
« Reply #25 on: March 19, 2024, 03:32:07 pm »
The Blue Badge parking clock is only legally required for yellow lines only but not for time limit bay - disabled bay or not.

Hi there. I appreciate your input. Can you please copy & paste the exact traffic order you are quoting?

THANK YOU

You can see the legislation below stating that a parking clock is required for parking on yellow lines.

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2000/683/regulation/8/made

But this one do not require parking clock for parking in a parking place beyond waiting limit
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2000/683/regulation/7/made

UKdave

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Re: Leeds City Council PCN Sunday Disabled bay Time clock "wrong"
« Reply #26 on: March 19, 2024, 04:49:42 pm »
Quote

You can see the legislation below stating that a parking clock is required for parking on yellow lines.

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2000/683/regulation/8/made

But this one do not require parking clock for parking in a parking place beyond waiting limit
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2000/683/regulation/7/made

THANK YOU SIR

I really appreciate that

Phantomcrusader

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Re: Leeds City Council PCN Sunday Disabled bay Time clock "wrong"
« Reply #27 on: March 19, 2024, 05:08:42 pm »
It's important to note that the 2000 regulations do not apply in your case. The parking place is set aside specifically for disabled badge holders and therefore no exemption is being sought by the display of a disabled persons badge (you don't need an exemption if the parking place is provided for your use!). The 2000 regulations may have a part to play though if the applicable traffic regulation order that regulates the parking place refers to them for definition purposes.

I gave you in post 6, good reasons why the penalty charge should be cancelled. Chiefly that the penalty charge exceeds the applicable amount. This is a limited waiting parking place and therefore the contravention should be code 30 parked for longer than permitted which is a lower £50.00 penalty. The 2nd main reason is that the alleged contravention did not occur because your disabled person's badge was valid. Just because the clock indicated you overstayed does not invalidate your badge. This is not a case of relying upon an exemption (such as parking on a double yellow line) given where a badge and clock must be displayed.

If you need help putting these points into a coherent written argument just say and I'll assist.
« Last Edit: March 19, 2024, 05:10:56 pm by Phantomcrusader »

Phantomcrusader

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Re: Leeds City Council PCN Sunday Disabled bay Time clock "wrong"
« Reply #28 on: March 20, 2024, 12:36:13 pm »
What tosh HCA. I recall you saying similar tosh to CP8759 and the case succeeded at adjudication.

A disc clock set to the wrong arrival time does not invalidate the disabled person's badge. Therefore a code 40 PCN is nonsense. If you disagree, state the regulation that says failure to set the clock correctly invalidates the displayed badge. Due to the clock indicating that the vehicle had been parked for longer than allowed, the correct conclusion for the CEO to draw is that the vehicle had been parked for longer than permitted. Consequently a lower penalty of £50 was applicable not a higher £70 penalty. Don't lose sight of the fact that it is a limited waiting parking place albeit for a specific user type. The badge showed that the driver was entitled to park but by the driver not setting the clock correctly it was reasonable for the CEO to issue a code 30 PCN not a code 40 one.This is not a case where the 2000 TRO regulations apply. No exemption is being claimed by the display of the badge and clock.

Phantomcrusader

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Re: Leeds City Council PCN Sunday Disabled bay Time clock "wrong"
« Reply #29 on: March 20, 2024, 01:47:32 pm »
@UKdave here are my points that you can copy and paste.

I concede that when I parked in the disabled badge holder’s only limited waiting parking place I failed to set the parking disc clock to show my correct time of arrival. I can advise that in reality I had not parked for longer than the permitted 4 hours when the PCN was issued. I apologise for this oversight and acknowledge that by displaying an incorrect time of arrival it gave ground for your CEO to issue a penalty charge.

However, the incorrectly set parking disc clock did not invalidate the disabled person’s badge as alleged by the PCN. The parking place is for disabled badge holder use and therefore The Local Authorities' Traffic Orders (Exemptions for Disabled Persons) (England) Regulations 2000 are not applicable here because I was not claiming any exemption. I do not need exemption to park in a parking place that is specifically provided for my use as a disabled badge holder. A wrongly set parking disc clock does not invalidate the disabled person’s badge that was displayed. The Local Authorities' Traffic Orders (Exemptions for Disabled Persons) (England) Regulations 2000 under regulation 3 identifies a disabled person’s badge and parking disc clock as being independent items and no where do these regulations stipulate that any failing with setting the clock invalidates the disabled person’s badge. Consequently, the alleged contravention did not occur as my disabled person’s badge was not invalid.

Furthermore, by issuing a code 40 PCN the penalty charge exceeds the amount applicable in the circumstances. The parking place is a limited waiting parking albeit that only disabled badge holders can park within it. Due to the parking disc clock displaying an incorrect time of arrival it would have been appropriate for your CEO to issue a code 30 PCN for being parked for longer than permitted. The parked for longer than permitted fact is acknowledged by your office in the rejection notice sent in response to my informal challenge. This contravention is a lower penalty charge of £50.00. The wrong contravention description was used and consequently the council is wrongly seeking £70.00 from me.

There is also an Equality Act 2010 issue that the Council has a duty to consider. Regular limited waiting bays don't require the display of a parking disc clock. By making disabled people set and display a clock is treating them different to able bodied people who park in a regular limited waiting bay and it creates a situation where disabled people have a higher chance of making an error such as the clock falling off or being set incorrectly. Timings should be based on CEO observations the same as a regular limited waiting bay. There is no need to give the disabled the extra burden of setting and displaying a clock. I believe that the Council is unlawfully treating disabled people differently from able bodied people and I ask you to reconsider your approach to disabled badge holders only limited waiting parking places.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2024, 02:17:28 pm by Phantomcrusader »