3. PCN - North Somerset Council -34J Being in a buslane
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PCN - North Somerset Council -34J Being in a buslane
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11/8/2023
Queensway bus terminus, weston super mare

My father received this as per date. However the motorcycle in question was sold May 2022 as part of a garage & house clearance at his property. The buyer was essentially a passerby who expressed an interest, paid cash & I sent the v5 form off and never gave it another thought. 
It appears though that the dvla have not got the updated ownership information.

The motorcycle was SORN'ed 2010.
My father surrendered his license 8 years ago.
He suffered a debilitating stroke November 2021, is housebound & confined to a wheelchair.

I wrote to the the council on his behalf to outline the above but they responded they are unable to correspond with me due to not being the owner.
I wrote another letter with my dads signature again outlining the above.
I have written to the dvla after being delayed by their webform for 2 weeks regarding "the confirmation of the sale or transfer of a vehicle" letter which in hindsight not received. I have not yet had a response from them.

Today my dad received an appeal rejected letter, I suspect its NOTICE OF REJECTION OF REPRESENTATIONS & will now have to appeal to the independent Traffic Penalty Tribunal.
I guess im asking how best to proceed.

struggling to insert images of the letters..
https://imgur.com/a/lWl3tFx

« Last Edit: September 21, 2023, 02:40:02 pm by McOzzy »
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Re: PCN - North Somerset Council -34J Being in a buslane
« Reply #1 on: »
Here's the video:



Location: https://maps.app.goo.gl/4AWifW7QLeCTnTgQ6

Can you please show us the representations page of the original PCN, the representations sent to the council, and every page of the notice of rejection?

Appealing on your own is generally not advised, for the reasons made self-evident by this case: https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/warwickshire-cc-pcn-code-24-not-within-markings-of-bay-lakin-road-warwick/

This is going to be a rather complex appeal and I am happy to act as your dad's representative.

In parallel to that, you or your dad need to go and fill in this form https://contact.dvla.gov.uk/vehicle/capture_transaction_type?locale=en&transaction_type_id=receiving_correspondence_for_a_vehicle_i_have_never_owned_or_no_longer_own to tell DVLA you no longer own the vehicle. Get a screenshot of the confirmation screen when that's done.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2023, 01:03:29 am by cp8759 »
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
Re: PCN - North Somerset Council -34J Being in a buslane
« Reply #2 on: »
Many thanks for responding.
I have included the full correspondence chain below.
EDIT - didnt work. I will look into how to embed images & fix asap.
EDIT - fixed. Screenshots are massive. Apologies.





I did not keep a record on the representation form I filled in & sent back with the below cover. It was basically no longer own the vehicle & have no details on the current owner. It was signed by my father.







I do not have the final rejection letter yet. I will collect this at the weekend when I visit my father & upload it.

I have completed the dvla form as suggested. 946967
I had originally contacted them via their website regarding Have not received confirmation of the sale or transfer of a vehicle on the 8/9/23 . They replied on the 15/9/23 advising me to write to them as they cant accept notification via email.



I had a letter ready to send to the dvla as it need signing this weekend, but based on the information from the form link you gave me, I have  reworded it.

« Last Edit: September 22, 2023, 09:33:31 am by McOzzy »
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Re: PCN - North Somerset Council -34J Being in a buslane
« Reply #3 on: »
In your draft letter to DVLA, you want to change "ownership" to "keepership", there is no register of owners in the UK and being the registered keeper and the legal owner are very different things.

I also suggest you explicitly ask DVLA to remove your father as the keeper from 27 May 2022 (they can backdate this), and that they ask the police to put a "no known keeper" marker on the vehicle so it can get stopped.

Would you like me to act as your father's representative at the traffic penalty tribunal?
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
Re: PCN - North Somerset Council -34J Being in a buslane
« Reply #4 on: »
Thanks for the information re the DVLA letter. Ammended. This will be posted on monday and likely take 6 weeks for a response.

Yes please to the representation. I will upload the rejection letter by the end of the weekend.
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Re: PCN - North Somerset Council -34J Being in a buslane
« Reply #5 on: »
The letter isn't quite what I had expected based on my fathers description plus the template I downloaded from this site. I had expected a final rejection but it doesn't appear to be that.









They have put the pcn on hold for 21 days to allow me to present further evidence.
  • signed sales receipt - I dont have this.
  • confirmation from the dvla - i dont have this nor expect anything for 6 weeks based on their timescales layed out in their email. Only the reference number from the form 946967
  • cancellation of vehicle insurance - I may be able to find the final insurance letter confirming insurance expiration, but unlikely after 13 years. Not that this would indicate to me the vehicle wasnt being used without insurance.

So I dont see what evidence I can add, unless a doctors letter confirming my fathers inability to walk since nov 2021 & hence ride a motorcycle? which you alluded to in your email.

If you would rather I responded to your email & go straight to the independent tribunal now, rather than trying to provide further evidence to the council, then I'm happy to do that.
 
Thank you.
 
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Re: PCN - North Somerset Council -34J Being in a buslane
« Reply #6 on: »
OP---the timescale for the DVLA looks prohibitive so your backstop is letting cp8759 represent you at Tribunal as he has suggested. He can ask for a number of adjournments which helps timescales.

TBH if the Council is chasing your father in the knowledge that he is disabled then they haven't dealt with his case properly under the Equality Act or the disability legislation.

A letter from his doctor, which will probably cost a fee, is of no real use.You can provide evidence of disability by a DWP award letter or a Blue Badge.

The crux of the matter is ownership so issues like cancellation of insurance and SORN are important pieces of evidence.

Looking at the location it appears as if the Council have prepared a honeytrap just outside a McDonalds. The estate roads either side are No-Entry with the bus gate in between. The worry is that our friend on the motorbike is a delivery driver working out of Mcdonalds so more PCNs might arrive.But you know where to find him!

Mike
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Re: PCN - North Somerset Council -34J Being in a buslane
« Reply #7 on: »
"Looking at the location it appears as if the Council have prepared a honeytrap just outside a McDonalds" - i quite agree after watching the footage of the rider hesitating & appearing unsure after riding into the turning.

"The crux of the matter is ownership so issues like cancellation of insurance and SORN are important pieces of evidence." - I'm going to try to find these when at his house next, although at a minimum of 8 years for the license & 13 years for the sorn, I dont hold out much hope of finding anything.

I could make this go away now by paying the £35 but as you say, it doesn't help with possible future infringements with the keepership being incorrect. Plus the whole unfairness of the situation is really irking me.

I have now contacted cp8759  thank you.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2023, 10:32:18 am by McOzzy »
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Re: PCN - North Somerset Council -34J Being in a buslane
« Reply #8 on: »
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
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