Author Topic: LB Havering, code 31J, entering and stopping in a box junction  (Read 5754 times)

0 Members and 13 Guests are viewing this topic.

Hello Guys,

I am not done yet with appealing against one ridiculous PCN HERE, while I just received another one:

https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/lwur6znny7c37k15p1d3m/PCN_Boxjunction.pdf?rlkey=ilymfpkyjsd5l3zgt40qejh3k&st=re3qodbs&dl=0

This one is more tricky - the traffic was quite fluid when I entered the crossing and I was pretty sure I was going to have enough room to get out of the box.
I was in a hurry, and I remember standing there just of a second or two, but the video shows that apparently it was a bit longer.

To make it easier to watch the video: parking.havering.gov.uk
VRN: NH21FFV
PCN no. HG61859178

Is it "appealable" at all (with any chance for a successful outcome) or is it just better to pay the discounted fee in this case (which I would hate to do for my "beloved" council)? 

Share on Bluesky Share on Facebook


Re: LB Havering, code 31J, entering and stopping in a box junction
« Reply #1 on: »
Normally the video has to show the precise moment of entry into the box junction as this is when the offence if committed. In your case your vehicle enters the box off screen, and we do not know at what moment that was or precise traffic conditions.

See what others think but you may be able to beat it on that basis.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2025, 09:18:56 pm by MrChips »

Re: LB Havering, code 31J, entering and stopping in a box junction
« Reply #2 on: »
+1
I was just reading cases on this very subject. It is generally agreed by London Tribunals, is that the contravention occurs when entering the box, ("cause a vehicle to enter the box......that it has to stop due to the presence of stationary vehicle")
As the video is the sole evidence, those that do not show entry don't show the contravention.

Re: LB Havering, code 31J, entering and stopping in a box junction
« Reply #3 on: »
There is a key case on this. I won one v Kingston last year too. And they STILL have an incorrect ground on their PCN re traffic order!

Website is still defective:

A-  The alleged Contravention did not occur
B I was not the owner of the vehicle at the time of contravention
-  I had sold the vehicle before that date
-  I had bought the vehicle after that date
-  I have never owned that vehicle
C -  The vehicle was taken without my consent
D -  We are a hire firm and have supplied details
E -  The Penalty Charge exceeds the relevant amount
F -  There has been a procedural impropriety by the Enforcement Authority
G -  The traffic order contravened is invalid
H -  The Notice should not have been served because the Penalty Charge had already been paid

I -  Other
« Last Edit: April 25, 2025, 11:14:06 am by Hippocrates »
IF YOU RECEIVE A MOVING TRAFFIC PCN PLEASE READ THIS BEFORE MAKING A REPRESENTATION:

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/moving-traffic-pcns-missing-mandatory-information-the-london-local-authorities-a/msg102639/#msg102639


How do we get more people to fight their PCNs?

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/how-do-we-get-more-people-to-fight-their-pcns/msg41917/#msg41917

If you do not even make a challenge, you will surely join "The Mugged Club".

I am not omniscient. cp8759 and mrmustard are true geniuses. I know my place in the hierarchy of The Three Musketeers. 😊 "The Clinician", "The Gentleman" and "The Showman"

My e mail address for councils:

J.BOND007@H.M.S.S.c/oVAUXHALLBRIDGE/LICENSEDTOEXPOSE.SCAMS.CO.UK

Last mission accomplished:

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/southwark-to-r

Re: LB Havering, code 31J, entering and stopping in a box junction
« Reply #4 on: »
OK, but being the devil’s advocate:
If the contravention only occurs when entering the box, and the video should be showing this (while it is not), then that may be a ground to appeal indeed – but just from a purely legal perspective.
In fact, the camera zooms out in 0:18 and shows almost the entire junction (BUT still not the place I was standing at and entering the junction from!).
Might they argue that even though the exact moment of me entering the junction is not visible on the video, it still shows that I could have clearly seen at that moment that there was no room to leave it? That Toyota C-HR before my car was standing there for quite a long time before I even appeared on the video (thus – allegedly entered the junction)…

On the other hand -could I say that I was going to take the left lane leaving the junction just after that beige Nissan Micra, but I looked in the mirror and got scared by that big van coming right behind me at high speed – so I stayed on the right lane for my safety, not blocking any traffic after all?

I am trying to see all the angles here before I charge at the wall head-on…
« Last Edit: April 26, 2025, 08:51:18 pm by Mike_D »

« Last Edit: April 27, 2025, 12:12:06 pm by Hippocrates »
IF YOU RECEIVE A MOVING TRAFFIC PCN PLEASE READ THIS BEFORE MAKING A REPRESENTATION:

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/moving-traffic-pcns-missing-mandatory-information-the-london-local-authorities-a/msg102639/#msg102639


How do we get more people to fight their PCNs?

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/how-do-we-get-more-people-to-fight-their-pcns/msg41917/#msg41917

If you do not even make a challenge, you will surely join "The Mugged Club".

I am not omniscient. cp8759 and mrmustard are true geniuses. I know my place in the hierarchy of The Three Musketeers. 😊 "The Clinician", "The Gentleman" and "The Showman"

My e mail address for councils:

J.BOND007@H.M.S.S.c/oVAUXHALLBRIDGE/LICENSEDTOEXPOSE.SCAMS.CO.UK

Last mission accomplished:

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/southwark-to-r

Re: LB Havering, code 31J, entering and stopping in a box junction
« Reply #6 on: »
When did London PCNs increase because this one is still at £130/65 ?

Obviously we cant't use 'penalty exceeded' but maybe 'stupidy exceeded' ?

Re: LB Havering, code 31J, entering and stopping in a box junction
« Reply #7 on: »
When did London PCNs increase because this one is still at £130/65 ?

Obviously we cant't use 'penalty exceeded' but maybe 'stupidy exceeded' ?

7th April. I used "subceeded" recently!
IF YOU RECEIVE A MOVING TRAFFIC PCN PLEASE READ THIS BEFORE MAKING A REPRESENTATION:

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/moving-traffic-pcns-missing-mandatory-information-the-london-local-authorities-a/msg102639/#msg102639


How do we get more people to fight their PCNs?

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/how-do-we-get-more-people-to-fight-their-pcns/msg41917/#msg41917

If you do not even make a challenge, you will surely join "The Mugged Club".

I am not omniscient. cp8759 and mrmustard are true geniuses. I know my place in the hierarchy of The Three Musketeers. 😊 "The Clinician", "The Gentleman" and "The Showman"

My e mail address for councils:

J.BOND007@H.M.S.S.c/oVAUXHALLBRIDGE/LICENSEDTOEXPOSE.SCAMS.CO.UK

Last mission accomplished:

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/southwark-to-r

Re: LB Havering, code 31J, entering and stopping in a box junction
« Reply #8 on: »
Guys, if I were to go for it, do you have any recommended wording that I should use for this appeal?



PS I signed the petition, so did my wife and my daughter  ;) 
« Last Edit: April 28, 2025, 08:17:03 pm by Mike_D »

Re: LB Havering, code 31J, entering and stopping in a box junction
« Reply #9 on: »
1. The penalty charge as stated on the PCN subceeds the correct amount which came into force on 7th April.

2. The video does not show the situation upon alleged entry into the YBJ and so it follows that the alleged contravention is not proved.  I refer you to the following cases:

https://www.londontribunals.gov.uk/sites/default/files/keycases/Place%20Invaders%20Ltd.doc

In light of the above, please cancel the PCN.


If they reject, I am happy to assist.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2025, 08:38:26 pm by Hippocrates »
IF YOU RECEIVE A MOVING TRAFFIC PCN PLEASE READ THIS BEFORE MAKING A REPRESENTATION:

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/moving-traffic-pcns-missing-mandatory-information-the-london-local-authorities-a/msg102639/#msg102639


How do we get more people to fight their PCNs?

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/how-do-we-get-more-people-to-fight-their-pcns/msg41917/#msg41917

If you do not even make a challenge, you will surely join "The Mugged Club".

I am not omniscient. cp8759 and mrmustard are true geniuses. I know my place in the hierarchy of The Three Musketeers. 😊 "The Clinician", "The Gentleman" and "The Showman"

My e mail address for councils:

J.BOND007@H.M.S.S.c/oVAUXHALLBRIDGE/LICENSEDTOEXPOSE.SCAMS.CO.UK

Last mission accomplished:

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/southwark-to-r

Re: LB Havering, code 31J, entering and stopping in a box junction
« Reply #10 on: »
Did the change in penalty come into force for offences from 7 April or PCNs issued/served from 7 April? Offence in this case was prior to 7 April...

Re: LB Havering, code 31J, entering and stopping in a box junction
« Reply #11 on: »
Did the change in penalty come into force for offences from 7 April or PCNs issued/served from 7 April? Offence in this case was prior to 7 April...

London councils could charge the higher penalties beginning with contraventions on 7 April. One council didn't start doing this until 14 April (Haringey I think).

Re: LB Havering, code 31J, entering and stopping in a box junction
« Reply #12 on: »
This alleged contravention was on 3 April so is the penalty demanded not correct in that case?


Re: LB Havering, code 31J, entering and stopping in a box junction
« Reply #14 on: »
1. The penalty charge as stated on the PCN subceeds the correct amount which came into force on 7th April.

2. The video does not show the situation upon alleged entry into the YBJ and so it follows that the alleged contravention is not proved.  I refer you to the following cases:

https://www.londontribunals.gov.uk/sites/default/files/keycases/Place%20Invaders%20Ltd.doc

In light of the above, please cancel the PCN.


If they reject, I am happy to assist.

Oops, my bad yet again.
IF YOU RECEIVE A MOVING TRAFFIC PCN PLEASE READ THIS BEFORE MAKING A REPRESENTATION:

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/moving-traffic-pcns-missing-mandatory-information-the-london-local-authorities-a/msg102639/#msg102639


How do we get more people to fight their PCNs?

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/how-do-we-get-more-people-to-fight-their-pcns/msg41917/#msg41917

If you do not even make a challenge, you will surely join "The Mugged Club".

I am not omniscient. cp8759 and mrmustard are true geniuses. I know my place in the hierarchy of The Three Musketeers. 😊 "The Clinician", "The Gentleman" and "The Showman"

My e mail address for councils:

J.BOND007@H.M.S.S.c/oVAUXHALLBRIDGE/LICENSEDTOEXPOSE.SCAMS.CO.UK

Last mission accomplished:

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/southwark-to-r