Author Topic: LB Camden - Parked without payment (changed times) - Kentish Town Road  (Read 843 times)

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I've said it all in my draft letter. The scans are here:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1CqXV5K_xs04GyQwRYR_mQkIP21pyKgx2
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1deIwIs35diJkY4DdLWyw3G1ONqdZLmCu

GSV: https://www.google.com/maps/@51.5405375,-0.142168,3a,90y,68.9h,78.49t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1s5WjcFh-JYaeuzimHtaKigw!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fcb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26pitch%3D11.509491520105101%26panoid%3D5WjcFh-JYaeuzimHtaKigw%26yaw%3D68.89729515006772!7i16384!8i8192?coh=205410&entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI0MTAwOC4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D

Draft letter:

I received a PCN because Camden Council had recently changed the parking hours for the bay I was parked in.

I have been parking in this same bay on average at least once a week for more than 20 years, and had no reason to believe that my car was parked in a bay that required payment at that time. There were no warning signs at any point that bring it to the motorist’s attention that the parking hours have changed. Further, the parking signage is at the far end of the bay, more than 20 metres from my car.

Having checked on Camden Council’s website, I see that I can download a PDF map from the
following URL: https://www.camden.gov.uk/documents/20142/4207063/CPZ-Web+(1).pdf

This map shows that the parking hours of the CPZ CA-F(n) are between 08:30 and 18:30. This is incorrect, as according to the CPZ signage the parking hours have been extended to 23:00.

Further, I can see that on the page that covers Residents, Paid for parking, Pay by Phone, Shared-Use bays traffic orders for zone CA-F: https://www.camden.gov.uk/cpz-orders#avws
the Traffic Management Order displays the times for this bay (10560) as “MONDAY - FRIDAY: 8.30AM - 6.30PM, SATURDAY, SUNDAY: 9.30AM - 5.30PM”.

The council have therefore provided contradictory messaging on their website to the signage and this is a procedural impropriety. I therefore ask you to cancel this PCN.
===============
Notes / questions:

My observation about the CPZ is possibly off-topic, but the restricted hours of the CPZs always seem to be aligned with the hours of the parking bays and motorists should be able to rely on this as a guide.

Another point I could raise is that repeater signs should be every 30 metres, and the spirit of that law is that no car will be further than 15m from a sign. My car is 20m from that sign and according to Greenslade in Antonio Prendi v London Borough of Camden (2100346960, 30 September 2010), "motorists cannot be expected to traipse the streets looking for signs".

I expect Camden will probably reject, and it will go to London Tribunals.

Any advice before sending?
« Last Edit: October 11, 2024, 02:15:56 pm by london_memories »

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Re: LB Camden - Parked without payment (changed times) - Kentish Town Road
« Reply #1 on: »
Camden has just made an experimental order extending times in this CPZ including the pay bays in Kentish Town Road:

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/notice/4711985

Experimental orders are usually made permanent or scrapped after 18 months.

It's very recent but you have a duty to consult signs - it's folly to assume a sign today will be the same tomorrow.

CPZs control only single yellow lines and you are right that the times are often consistent with parking bays but a bay is not controlled by the entry sign and in inner London there are often varying conditions.

I would hope Camden would use discretion in first time cases such as yours.

About the CPZ map - you seem to have found an old one (dated 2010) that should have been taken down. On their website the map I see shows that this CPZ has been changed in line with order so it may well be all bays in this zone are the same as single yellows (although we know in Camden there are some yellows with their own timeplates that override the CPZ, and some 24/7 resident bays as noted in this zone for weekends etc or everyday):

https://lbcamden.maps.arcgis.com/apps/View/index.html?appid=310e8d556aa940cc908e7acb33323e05

« Last Edit: October 11, 2024, 06:34:48 pm by stamfordman »

Re: LB Camden - Parked without payment (changed times) - Kentish Town Road
« Reply #2 on: »
Let's face it, Camden are shite, but this actually means they make more money !

Re: LB Camden - Parked without payment (changed times) - Kentish Town Road
« Reply #3 on: »
Thanks for the info, @stamfordman. It helps me build up a total picture.

So that order is dated the 26th September, I parked there without issue on the 5th September, and that means the signs must have been changed between the 7th and 10th October, the date of the PCN.

I was working at a nearby pub at the time and my boss says that they did it "really suddenly and with no written warning to any businesses". He will try to find out the exact date, but being as there's such a small span of time between changing and getting the PCN, maybe my chances of a discretionary cancellation are a little higher. I would certainly prefer that than to have to go through the whole rigmarole of London Tribunals.

Re: LB Camden - Parked without payment (changed times) - Kentish Town Road
« Reply #4 on: »
I presume you mean 5 October without issue. It may be they were giving some grace but maybe hadn't done all the zone entry and bay signs.

I think your best bet is to try a polite ask on the surprise as it's so soon after the change.

The tribunal can't use discretion if Camden wants your money but they would probably have to prove to the adjudicator's satisfaction that all new signage was in place.

There is a point in clear advance signage for a new moving traffic restriction but a bay sign is a bay sign. But I expect good practice by some authorities is to put up some signs about new CPZ times particularly on the entry signs.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2024, 08:07:34 pm by stamfordman »

Re: LB Camden - Parked without payment (changed times) - Kentish Town Road
« Reply #5 on: »
Well, correct me if I'm wrong but they would also have to prove to the adjudicator's satisfaction that all messaging was uniform on the website and they can't do that because the page that deals with Traffic Management Orders for that zone CA-F has not been updated.

Re: LB Camden - Parked without payment (changed times) - Kentish Town Road
« Reply #6 on: »
It's an experimental order so not made permanent but became operational for the time being on 7 October.

Camden puts recently advertised traffic management proposals here and this one as per the Gazette item I posted was done on 26 Sett:

https://www.camden.gov.uk/recently-advertised-proposals

Re: LB Camden - Parked without payment (changed times) - Kentish Town Road
« Reply #7 on: »
What was the outcome of this case?

If it helps, I was in one of these recently changed bays, I didn't get a ticket as I noticed the timings were changed.

What was interesting was that I tried to use the RingGo app to pay, it was a pay and display bay, but the app was saying "no need to pay as no restrictions at this time", or something along those lines.