Author Topic: Lambeth Salters Hill - Failing to Give Way 37 j 28/04/24  (Read 3553 times)

0 Members and 146 Guests are viewing this topic.

Lambeth Salters Hill - Failing to Give Way 37 j 28/04/24
« on: »
Hi all,

I recieved a PCN on 06/05/24 for for the above no give way and wanted to check if there any point in appealing before I pay it. Have attached the redacted PCN.

Video Link - https://imgur.com/a/uyhcBB8
VRN EX63KWF

Thanks in advance
T

** Updated with PCN and video ***

[ Guests cannot view attachments ]
« Last Edit: May 13, 2024, 12:10:48 pm by 244065013 »

Share on Bluesky Share on Facebook


Re: Lambeth Salters Hill - Failing to Give Way 37 j 28/04/24
« Reply #1 on: »
Please re-instate PCN number and re.mark - see
https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/read-this-first-before-posting-your-case!-this-section-is-for-council-tfl-dartme/

The evidence against you is not the photos, but the video. Please download from Lambeth's site and post here.

Re: Lambeth Salters Hill - Failing to Give Way 37 j 28/04/24
« Reply #2 on: »
Many thanks John.

Have added PCN and video.

T

Re: Lambeth Salters Hill - Failing to Give Way 37 j 28/04/24
« Reply #3 on: »
The other car was stationary so it's unlikely you impeded them by crossing the give way line.

Re: Lambeth Salters Hill - Failing to Give Way 37 j 28/04/24
« Reply #4 on: »
See s 4.8.3 and 4.8.5
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/782724/traffic-signs-manual-chapter-03.pdf

'Unless the limits of the priority section are obvious e.g. through the arch of a bridge..the signs should include the distance.

They don't.

IMO, a driver is entitled by virtue of this omission and the presence of 'obvious' limits i.e. the arch of the bridge, to consider that the limits of the priority section do not extend beyond the arch.

There is no vehicle in or in motion approaching this section.

Lambeth consider that any vehicle which their camera can see approaching from the opposite direction, even if nowhere near the 'priority' sign in their direction, represents potentially impeded traffic.   


Re: Lambeth Salters Hill - Failing to Give Way 37 j 28/04/24
« Reply #5 on: »
This exceptionally mendacious council seem to think they make the laws regarding these give-way locations, and of course, always in favour of them making shedloads of money out of it.

Fortunately, using GSV, one can see where the approaching car was located when you passed through the single-lane section. If one looks at the left side of the street where the car is located, one can see a dropped kerb. This is located at the vehicle entry gates of the Kingswood Primary School, and as you can see, is some distance away from the sign that indicates the car has priority within the single lane section.

https://maps.app.goo.gl/doJDkSbMotjwEP1E6

The distance according to GSV is just under 25 metres. I would therefore argue that the contravention did not occur. You can also view cases on the London Tribunals Statutory Register under location "Salters Hill".

Re: Lambeth Salters Hill - Failing to Give Way 37 j 28/04/24
« Reply #6 on: »
Thanks all for your advise - I will appeal and see where it goes.

Re: Lambeth Salters Hill - Failing to Give Way 37 j 28/04/24
« Reply #7 on: »
Also note that the speed limit at this location is 20 mph.

Re: Lambeth Salters Hill - Failing to Give Way 37 j 28/04/24
« Reply #8 on: »
OP, I would reiterate that your reps should focus on objective facts (the video) and the law. In this regard..:

The council's evidence shows the following:
A 'priority' sign as defined by the Traffic Signs etc. Regs;
An associated plate stating 'Give way to oncoming vehicles' but without a specified distance over which the priority applies;
The arch of a bridge and a narrowed carriageway for the length of the arch;
An oncoming vehicle which was stationary but not within the length of the arch or narrowed carriageway;
My car entering this narrowed section.

The legal interpretation of the combination of signs is given in the Traffic Signs etc. Regs and further expanded in s4 of Chapter 3 of the Traffic Signs Manual which states that:

'Unless the limits of the priority section are obvious e.g. through the arch of a bridge etc..then the traffic sign [indicating the priorities] should include the distance over which the priority applies.'

The driver is therefore entitled to rely upon what are the obvious limits of the priority i.e. through the arch of the bridge.

It is indisputable that there were no oncoming vehicles in the priority section, indeed, the nearest vehicle appears to be at least ** metres from the end of the arch and ** m from the priority sign on that side and therefore the authority must cancel the PCN.

In order to forestall the authority from misguidedly believing that the 'Give Way..' associated plate alters the nature of the prohibition, I would refer them to s4 of the Traffic Signs Manual and the Traffic etc. Signs Regs which make it clear that a 'Give Way' restriction applies at junctions only and not along a two-way section of carriageway. Specifically:

'The Give Way sign may be used ..to give greater emphasis[to the priority restriction] and to indicate where vehicles should wait[when required to do so].
« Last Edit: May 14, 2024, 11:33:53 am by H C Andersen »

Re: Lambeth Salters Hill - Failing to Give Way 37 j 28/04/24
« Reply #9 on: »
Thank you. I will work up a draft and post back.

T

Re: Lambeth Salters Hill - Failing to Give Way 37 j 28/04/24
« Reply #10 on: »
@244065013 have a look at the cases in rows 598 to 604 here, you'll find the original threads for each case in column H (though of course all the ones that originated on pepipoo won't be accessible).

You can use the successful cases and the original threads for inspiration for your representations.

You deadline to make representations is 4 June but don't leave it too long to post a draft, as we need a fair chance to review it and post any feedback.
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

Re: Lambeth Salters Hill - Failing to Give Way 37 j 28/04/24
« Reply #11 on: »
Thanks all, I have attempted at a draft challenge below, Would be grateful on any feedback.

Thanks
T


I would like to appeal against the PCN the alleged contravention did not occur. As my vehicle passed the priority area there were no oncoming vehicle was within the priority area. The alleged  oncoming vehicle which was stationary but not within the length of the arch or narrowed carriageway as can be seen on the video provided by the council.
As per s4 of Chapter 3 of the Traffic Signs Manual which states ‘’Unless the limits of the priority section are obvious e.g. through the arch of a bridge etc. then the traffic sign [indicating the priorities] should include the distance over which the priority applies.’’
In this case the priority area in which a vehicle is required to give way is that between the council's give way sign and the corresponding sign facing motorists travelling in the opposite direction as shown in the images.
As a result could you please cancel this PCN.

Re: Lambeth Salters Hill - Failing to Give Way 37 j 28/04/24
« Reply #12 on: »
Not 'Give Way', but give priority to vehicles from the opposite direction within the priority area.

Re: Lambeth Salters Hill - Failing to Give Way 37 j 28/04/24
« Reply #13 on: »
Thanks, I will ammend and make the challenge.

T

Re: Lambeth Salters Hill - Failing to Give Way 37 j 28/04/24
« Reply #14 on: »
@244065013 that looks fine to me, though I suspect the council will inevitably reject and this will have to be taken to the tribunal.
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order