Author Topic: [Kingston upon Thames] Took a prohibited turn. But where's the sign?  (Read 606 times)

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This is somehow weird.

My partner followed her memory and didn't spot a no-turn traffic sign in the dark. I mean, she followed her memory, because left turn was allowed there for a long time until Wickes was sold to Lidl a few years ago. Here is the layout in 2021:

https://maps.app.goo.gl/p6rMxxijT19Vzimj6

Today, however, vehicles leaving the Lidl car park aren't supposed to turn left into Gordon Road:



It may be because Gordon Road is blocked for vehicular traffic further down, next to house no. 29; although it remains a two-way road up to there.

But look at the placement of the no-left-turn sign! It's in front, behind the crossing, not even on the road that it applies to. The way I'm reading the traffic signs regulations and the common sense, the sign should be placed before the crossing, right where the prohibition starts, like here:



Is a road marking alone enforceable, especially when much smaller than the statutory dimensions and without an accompanying traffic sign? Never mind that it's situated on private land.

I appealed based on the above:

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1mnPiUNlPHiKIqRdd_D1NFQJYCIin35P7

...and today we received a rejection notice:

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1ONdV_Pj8Wc4SNJD3cJx1q-A0XavahMz1

Does it make sense to appeal to the adjudicator?

Grateful for any advice.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2026, 07:04:49 am by Thor »

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Re: [Kingston upon Thames] Took a prohibited turn. But where's the sign?
« Reply #1 on: »
Quote
Does it make sense to appeal to the adjudicator?

Probably, but please post all sides of the PCN (redact pnly yr name & address - leave all else in) do it can be checked for errors.

Do you know where the advance warning sign to which their rejection refers is situated?

Have you the video? It's not clear from their grainy photograph if their sign is illuminated?
« Last Edit: January 11, 2026, 08:43:40 am by John U.K. »

Re: [Kingston upon Thames] Took a prohibited turn. But where's the sign?
« Reply #2 on: »
please post all sides of the PCN (redact pnly yr name & address - leave all else in) do it can be checked for errors.

All the four pages are there: https://drive.google.com/open?id=1esbVY50FPKqAwUEH6l1AtooUj9jPCwId

Do you know where the advance warning sign to which their rejection refers is situated?

No other signs are there. Where the photographer is standing is a private car park only, no road.

Have you the video? It's not clear from their grainy photograph if their sign is illuminated?

Video is there, but the sign isn't visible: https://drive.google.com/open?id=1qaRlWoSq9KQ0YhdXnMcuZgBdSdTVfAH_

Sign is illuminated.

What I was trying to point to is the requirement that the sign be placed "as close as possible to the point where the restriction starts." – that being the point, passing which the restriction comes into force. Whereas here, the driver even does not pass the sign before getting on the crossing and turning - the sign has been placed on the side of another road, in a rather unexpected place for a driver who's arriving at a crossing and looking left and right to turn safely.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2026, 09:16:31 am by Thor »

Re: [Kingston upon Thames] Took a prohibited turn. But where's the sign?
« Reply #3 on: »
The test of signage is "adequacy". Have a read here of Regulation 18 of The Local Authorities’ Traffic Orders (Procedure) (England and Wales) Regulations 1996: -
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1996/2489/regulation/18




Re: [Kingston upon Thames] Took a prohibited turn. But where's the sign?
« Reply #4 on: »
I know this location very well. How do you know the sign was illuminated? You should be putting them to strict proof it was on the said day/evening.

I have a technical argument re the PCN as in my first link but it's 60/40 in my favour at present unless, of course, I get my own similar PCN.  ;D

No point in arguing abut the TMO as that is for the High Court.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2026, 03:51:26 pm by Hippocrates »
I REGRET THAT, FOR THE PRESENT, I AM UNABLE TO TAKE ON ANY MORE CASES AS A REPRESENTATIVE AT THE LONDON TRIBUNALS. THIS IS FOR BOTH PERSONAL AND LEGAL REASONS. PLEASE DO NOT PM ME UNLESS YOU HAVE POSTED YOUR THREAD ON THE FORUM AND I WILL ATTEMPT TO GIVE ADVICE.


If you do not challenge, you join "The Mugged Club".

cp8759 and mrmustard are true geniuses. I know my place in the hierarchy of The Three Musketeers. 😊 "The Clinician", "The Gentleman" and "The Showman"

There are "known knowns" which we may never have wished to know. This applies to them. But in the field the idea that there are also "unknown unknowns" doesn't apply as they hide in the aleatoric lottery. I know this is true and need to be prepared knowing the "unknown unknowns" may well apply.

To Socrates from "Hippocrates"

Re: [Kingston upon Thames] Took a prohibited turn. But where's the sign?
« Reply #5 on: »
Presumably that's also the only way into the car park, and there's signage about the restriction which the driver ought to have seen on their way in? I would think the sign on the opposite side of the road is the normal extent of any reminder you get on your way back out of private land (the roads authority can't realistically stick additional signs inside the private land). Whether it's sufficient for a penalty, I don't know.