Author Topic: Kingston Borough Council – 31J Stopping in a box junction (Richmond Road junction with Sopwith Way)  (Read 1865 times)

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Hi All,
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Was driving home from the Theatre in Kingston. Stopped at controlled lights with junction. Lights were green and traffic ahead was moving so proceeded into box expecting traffic to clear as it was moving. However as I entered the box I saw that the box was much bigger than expected (you cannot see the exit to the box clearly due to faded markings and poor weather and dark conditions).
<p>
I could’ve have cleared the box however the car in front failed to close the gap ahead (even with a friendly hoot of the horn).
<p>
Poor traffic controls on the subsequent lights mean that the junction does not function correctly. Compounded by ongoing roadworks further on backing all traffic up.
<p>
My argument would be that the box is too big as you can’t see where it ends clearly as it ‘travels’ around to the right. This is also impossible to see at night and in poor weather until you are on it. Also traffic controls suggest that you can proceed – the lights are well behind the box and you cannot see the exit of the box from the controls.
<p>
Here is view in day: https://www.google.com/maps/@51.4134214,-0....i8192?entry=ttu
<p>
At night the poor markings are not clearly visible.
<p>
It also doesn’t help that I don’t live in Kingston and are unfamiliar with the layout.
<p>
PCN pictures:






<p>

Video:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1po3au5R5oj...iew?usp=sharing
<p>
Thoughts on challenging this? All help appreciated.
<p>
I also got a bus lane ticket 9 minutes earlier which I will post on here too. Closed roads and poor signage again.
<p>
Thanks

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The whole PCN please.
IF YOU RECEIVE A MOVING TRAFFIC PCN PLEASE READ THIS BEFORE MAKING A REPRESENTATION:

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/moving-traffic-pcns-missing-mandatory-information-the-london-local-authorities-a/msg102639/#msg102639


How do we get more people to fight their PCNs?

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/how-do-we-get-more-people-to-fight-their-pcns/msg41917/#msg41917

If you do not even make a challenge, you will surely join "The Mugged Club".

I am not omniscient. cp8759 and mrmustard are true geniuses. I know my place in the hierarchy of The Three Musketeers. 😊 "The Clinician", "The Gentleman" and "The Showman"

My e mail address for councils:

J.BOND007@H.M.S.S.c/oVAUXHALLBRIDGE/LICENSEDTOEXPOSE.SCAMS.CO.UK

Last mission accomplished:

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/southwark-to-r

Video does not show the car entering the box:



Some pages of the PCN doesn't seem to be loading properly, please re-post.
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/1024x768q70/922/whYPzE.jpg

@cp.  May be worth trying the conflation argument and the TWOC ground limiting to theft just to test their response?  Plus the video point.

For the benefit of the OP:

ETA Register of Appeals
Register kept under Regulation 20 of the Road Traffic (Parking Adjudicators) (London) Regulations 1993, as amended and Regulation 17 of the Civil Enforcement of Road Traffic Contraventions (Representations and Appeals) (England) Regulations 2022.
Case Details
Case reference   2110212199
Appellant   Chidi Egenti
Authority   London Borough of Islington
VRM   EA02WFR
PCN Details
PCN   IS2284987A
Contravention date   12 Feb 2011
Contravention time   12:06:00
Contravention location   Drayton Park/Horsell Road N5
Penalty amount   GBP 120.00
Contravention   Entering and stopping in a box junction
Referral date   
Decision Date   07 Jul 2011
Adjudicator   Teresa Brennan
Appeal decision   Appeal allowed
Direction   cancel the Penalty Charge Notice.
Reasons   Mr Egenti appeals and raises a number of issues both in his initial representations and in the Notice of Appeal.



One of the issues that Mr Egenti raised was wither the Penalty Charge Notice was enforceable as he states that the third ground of appeal, box C on the Penalty Charge Notice inaccurately reflects the statutory ground. Further he says that by stating that the insurance claim or crime report be provided that this fetters the basis on which a representation on this basis can be made. In his initial representations Mr Egenti specifically raised the issue of circumstances in which a relative might have taken the keys to the car without his consent.



In the Notice of Rejection issued on 30th March 2011 the local authority stated: 'If relative takes the car without permission the registered keeper of the vehicle is still liable for the charge unless they report the matter to the police' Whilst it may be that a local authority would not accept a representation made on this basis without a crime report there is no obligation on a registered keeper to provide a crime report and it is incorrect in law to state that a registered keeper must provide a crime report when relying on this ground of appeal. I find that the Notice of Rejection wrongly states the law and that it is therefore misleading.



The London Local Authorities Act 2003 imposes a duty on an enforcement authority to consider representations made and to then serve a notice indicating the decision that has been made. In this case I find that the London Borough of Islington has failed to properly consider the representations because the Notice of Rejection inaccurately states the law. As this could have misled the appellant into not putting forward a particular basis of appeal I find that the local authority failed in its duty to consider the representations. Therefore I find that the local authority cannot enforce this Penalty Charge Notice and I allow this appeal.

« Last Edit: November 24, 2023, 12:22:46 pm by Hippocrates »
IF YOU RECEIVE A MOVING TRAFFIC PCN PLEASE READ THIS BEFORE MAKING A REPRESENTATION:

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/moving-traffic-pcns-missing-mandatory-information-the-london-local-authorities-a/msg102639/#msg102639


How do we get more people to fight their PCNs?

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/how-do-we-get-more-people-to-fight-their-pcns/msg41917/#msg41917

If you do not even make a challenge, you will surely join "The Mugged Club".

I am not omniscient. cp8759 and mrmustard are true geniuses. I know my place in the hierarchy of The Three Musketeers. 😊 "The Clinician", "The Gentleman" and "The Showman"

My e mail address for councils:

J.BOND007@H.M.S.S.c/oVAUXHALLBRIDGE/LICENSEDTOEXPOSE.SCAMS.CO.UK

Last mission accomplished:

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/southwark-to-r

@wolvoman I will PM you a link to put in the representation, it will redirect to here but if you give them the link I'll PM you, we can use the click count to confirm whether they've looked at it or not (obviously do not click on that link yourself as we want the click count to remain at zero). If they don't click on it, we can then prove they've failed to consider all of the evidence. If they say in the rejection that they've considered all the evidence, we've got them for lying as well.

Dear Royal Borough of Kingston upon Thames,

Firstly I challenge liability because the video evidence does not show my vehicle enter the box, so it does not actually show any contravention, nor does it show the circumstances at the point of entry.

Furthermore, a contravention of this type occurs at the point of entry into the box: a vehicle is prohibited from entering the box if it is later caused to stop, so the contravention occurs at the point of entry and not later on when the vehicle stops. The vehicle had already entered the box markings at 17:27:51.928 according to your video, so while a contravention might have occurred at 17:27, a contravention did not occur at 17:28.

As the PCN alleges a contravention at 17:28, the contravention alleged on the PCN did not occur.

I further bring a collateral challenge on the basis explained by the adjudicator in the decision in Chidi Egenti v London Borough of Islington which can be accessed at LINK and for the reasons explained there, the PCN is invalid in any event.

In light of the above, the PCN must be cancelled.

Yours faithfully,


Send the representations online and keep a screenshot of the confirmation page.
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

Re the Egenti case, I would prefer to make a representation without mentioning the case, rather try to recreate what Mr Egenti said.  And I would throw in the conflation argument to test their response.
IF YOU RECEIVE A MOVING TRAFFIC PCN PLEASE READ THIS BEFORE MAKING A REPRESENTATION:

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/moving-traffic-pcns-missing-mandatory-information-the-london-local-authorities-a/msg102639/#msg102639


How do we get more people to fight their PCNs?

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/how-do-we-get-more-people-to-fight-their-pcns/msg41917/#msg41917

If you do not even make a challenge, you will surely join "The Mugged Club".

I am not omniscient. cp8759 and mrmustard are true geniuses. I know my place in the hierarchy of The Three Musketeers. 😊 "The Clinician", "The Gentleman" and "The Showman"

My e mail address for councils:

J.BOND007@H.M.S.S.c/oVAUXHALLBRIDGE/LICENSEDTOEXPOSE.SCAMS.CO.UK

Last mission accomplished:

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/southwark-to-r

Re the Egenti case, I would prefer to make a representation without mentioning the case
You think they'll actually read it?
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

Re the TWOC ground I suggest this:

I do not believe that the PCN is enforceable because the taken without consent ground clearly fetters to theft by its very wording that a crime report be provided.  Therefore, this inaccurate reflection of the statutory ground does not take into account that a relative, or friend, may have taken the vehicle without the owner's permission so that the owner would not necessarily, if at all, report the matter to the Police.

A more appropriate wording would be to include "for example" so that the absence of such a phrase clearly implies theft only as a taken without consent ground.

Re conflation argument:

The PCN is also a nullity because of the conflation of the two periods of payment and making representations.  According to the relevant legislation, there are two distinct periods in which the recipient may either pay the penalty charge or make representations. The following statement creates prejudice and confusion:   "If you fail to pay the Penalty Charge or make representations before the end of the period of 28 days beginning with the date of service of this notice, an increased charge of £195 may be payable." I interpret the use of "or" as a conjunctive and so I do believe it to be a simple matter of syntax in that the conditional phrase "if you fail to pay the penalty charge notice or make representations...." clearly refers to and governs grammatically both periods and I contend that any other interpretation would fall under Wednesbury unreasonableness.  I  refer to the Barnet case at the High Court, which set a legal precedent, of course, in terms of the statutory obligations placed upon an Authority in its production of penalty charge notices, what they must contain in order to justify their legal enforcement and, lastly, that prejudice does not need to be proven i.e. R (Barnet) v The Parking Adjudicator (2006) EWHC 2357 (Admin): "Prejudice is irrelevant and does not have to be established. The 1991 Act creates a scheme for the civil enforcement of parking control. Under this scheme motorists become liable to pay financial penalties if certain specified statutory conditions are met. If the statutory conditions are not met, then the financial liability does not arise." The conflation of the two periods creates ambiguity, confusion and could even be interpreted that a charge certificate may be served even if representations have been made. In light of the above I would be most grateful if the Representation is given due consideration and the PCN cancelled on this occasion.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2023, 08:39:58 pm by Hippocrates »
IF YOU RECEIVE A MOVING TRAFFIC PCN PLEASE READ THIS BEFORE MAKING A REPRESENTATION:

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/moving-traffic-pcns-missing-mandatory-information-the-london-local-authorities-a/msg102639/#msg102639


How do we get more people to fight their PCNs?

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/how-do-we-get-more-people-to-fight-their-pcns/msg41917/#msg41917

If you do not even make a challenge, you will surely join "The Mugged Club".

I am not omniscient. cp8759 and mrmustard are true geniuses. I know my place in the hierarchy of The Three Musketeers. 😊 "The Clinician", "The Gentleman" and "The Showman"

My e mail address for councils:

J.BOND007@H.M.S.S.c/oVAUXHALLBRIDGE/LICENSEDTOEXPOSE.SCAMS.CO.UK

Last mission accomplished:

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/southwark-to-r

@wolvoman I will PM you a link to put in the representation, it will redirect to here but if you give them the link I'll PM you, we can use the click count to confirm whether they've looked at it or not (obviously do not click on that link yourself as we want the click count to remain at zero). If they don't click on it, we can then prove they've failed to consider all of the evidence. If they say in the rejection that they've considered all the evidence, we've got them for lying as well.

Dear Royal Borough of Kingston upon Thames,

Firstly I challenge liability because the video evidence does not show my vehicle enter the box, so it does not actually show any contravention, nor does it show the circumstances at the point of entry.

Furthermore, a contravention of this type occurs at the point of entry into the box: a vehicle is prohibited from entering the box if it is later caused to stop, so the contravention occurs at the point of entry and not later on when the vehicle stops. The vehicle had already entered the box markings at 17:27:51.928 according to your video, so while a contravention might have occurred at 17:27, a contravention did not occur at 17:28.

As the PCN alleges a contravention at 17:28, the contravention alleged on the PCN did not occur.

I further bring a collateral challenge on the basis explained by the adjudicator in the decision in Chidi Egenti v London Borough of Islington which can be accessed at LINK and for the reasons explained there, the PCN is invalid in any event.

In light of the above, the PCN must be cancelled.

Yours faithfully,


Send the representations online and keep a screenshot of the confirmation page.

You could include this too for them to consider.  The more the merrier.

I do not believe that the PCN is enforceable because the taken without consent ground clearly fetters to theft by its very wording that a crime report be provided.  Therefore, this inaccurate reflection of the statutory ground does not take into account that a relative, or friend, may have taken the vehicle without the owner's permission so that the owner would not necessarily, if at all, report the matter to the Police.

A more appropriate wording would be to include "for example" so that the absence of such a phrase clearly implies theft only as a taken without consent ground.


The PCN is also a nullity because of the conflation of the two periods of payment and making representations.  According to the relevant legislation, there are two distinct periods in which the recipient may either pay the penalty charge or make representations. The following statement creates prejudice and confusion:   "If you fail to pay the Penalty Charge or make representations before the end of the period of 28 days beginning with the date of service of this notice, an increased charge of £195 may be payable." I interpret the use of "or" as a conjunctive and so I do believe it to be a simple matter of syntax in that the conditional phrase "if you fail to pay the penalty charge notice or make representations...." clearly refers to and governs grammatically both periods and I contend that any other interpretation would fall under Wednesbury unreasonableness.  I  refer to the Barnet case at the High Court, which set a legal precedent, of course, in terms of the statutory obligations placed upon an Authority in its production of penalty charge notices, what they must contain in order to justify their legal enforcement and, lastly, that prejudice does not need to be proven i.e. R (Barnet) v The Parking Adjudicator (2006) EWHC 2357 (Admin): "Prejudice is irrelevant and does not have to be established. The 1991 Act creates a scheme for the civil enforcement of parking control. Under this scheme motorists become liable to pay financial penalties if certain specified statutory conditions are met. If the statutory conditions are not met, then the financial liability does not arise." The conflation of the two periods creates ambiguity, confusion and could even be interpreted that a charge certificate may be served even if representations have been made. In light of the above I would be most grateful if the Representation is given due consideration and the PCN cancelled on this occasion.
IF YOU RECEIVE A MOVING TRAFFIC PCN PLEASE READ THIS BEFORE MAKING A REPRESENTATION:

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/moving-traffic-pcns-missing-mandatory-information-the-london-local-authorities-a/msg102639/#msg102639


How do we get more people to fight their PCNs?

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/how-do-we-get-more-people-to-fight-their-pcns/msg41917/#msg41917

If you do not even make a challenge, you will surely join "The Mugged Club".

I am not omniscient. cp8759 and mrmustard are true geniuses. I know my place in the hierarchy of The Three Musketeers. 😊 "The Clinician", "The Gentleman" and "The Showman"

My e mail address for councils:

J.BOND007@H.M.S.S.c/oVAUXHALLBRIDGE/LICENSEDTOEXPOSE.SCAMS.CO.UK

Last mission accomplished:

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/southwark-to-r

@Hippocrates if you spell it out for them, it reduces the chances of a failure to consider?
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

Fair enough.  So how's this?  I think it asks the questions and does not provide any answers - I have curtailed  both our ideas as follows:

Dear Royal Borough of Kingston upon Thames,

Firstly I challenge liability because the video evidence does not show my vehicle enter the box, so it does not actually show any contravention, nor does it show the circumstances at the point of entry.

Furthermore, a contravention of this type occurs at the point of entry into the box: a vehicle is prohibited from entering the box if it is later caused to stop, so the contravention occurs at the point of entry and not later on when the vehicle stops. The vehicle had already entered the box markings at 17:27:51.928 according to your video, so while a contravention might have occurred at 17:27, a contravention did not occur at 17:28.

As the PCN alleges a contravention at 17:28, the contravention alleged on the PCN did not occur.

I further bring a collateral challenge on the basis that the PCN is enforceable because the taken without consent ground clearly fetters to theft by its very wording that a crime report be provided.  Therefore, this inaccurate reflection of the statutory ground does not take into account that a relative, or friend, may have taken the vehicle without the owner's permission so that the owner would not necessarily, if at all, report the matter to the Police in such circumstances.


Finally, The PCN is also a nullity because of the conflation of the two periods of payment and making representations. The following statement creates prejudice and confusion:  "If you fail to pay the Penalty Charge or make representations before the end of the period of 28 days beginning with the date of service of this notice, an increased charge of £195 may be payable." 

In light of the above I request that my representations are given due consideration and the PCN be cancelled.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2023, 12:56:27 pm by Hippocrates »
IF YOU RECEIVE A MOVING TRAFFIC PCN PLEASE READ THIS BEFORE MAKING A REPRESENTATION:

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/moving-traffic-pcns-missing-mandatory-information-the-london-local-authorities-a/msg102639/#msg102639


How do we get more people to fight their PCNs?

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/how-do-we-get-more-people-to-fight-their-pcns/msg41917/#msg41917

If you do not even make a challenge, you will surely join "The Mugged Club".

I am not omniscient. cp8759 and mrmustard are true geniuses. I know my place in the hierarchy of The Three Musketeers. 😊 "The Clinician", "The Gentleman" and "The Showman"

My e mail address for councils:

J.BOND007@H.M.S.S.c/oVAUXHALLBRIDGE/LICENSEDTOEXPOSE.SCAMS.CO.UK

Last mission accomplished:

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/southwark-to-r

@Hippocrates I'll contact you elsewhere, but personally I'd stick to what I drafted.
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

@ cp: My point as left for you via whats app re the Egenti case is to omit it because it gives them the answers.  As, indeed my pre-modified post re conflation did. 8)  And so I took on board your views and modified it.

If you give them a case, they will simply reply one case is not binding upon another, which is their right to say as it is correct.  Rather, if you simply give them the arguments, then they must consider.

We both know that these technical arguments cut to the core of the wording of the PCNs.  So, let them properly consider - all three of their officers!

We know that the P.O.M. is not up to the job.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2023, 08:28:37 pm by Hippocrates »
IF YOU RECEIVE A MOVING TRAFFIC PCN PLEASE READ THIS BEFORE MAKING A REPRESENTATION:

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/moving-traffic-pcns-missing-mandatory-information-the-london-local-authorities-a/msg102639/#msg102639


How do we get more people to fight their PCNs?

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/how-do-we-get-more-people-to-fight-their-pcns/msg41917/#msg41917

If you do not even make a challenge, you will surely join "The Mugged Club".

I am not omniscient. cp8759 and mrmustard are true geniuses. I know my place in the hierarchy of The Three Musketeers. 😊 "The Clinician", "The Gentleman" and "The Showman"

My e mail address for councils:

J.BOND007@H.M.S.S.c/oVAUXHALLBRIDGE/LICENSEDTOEXPOSE.SCAMS.CO.UK

Last mission accomplished:

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/southwark-to-r

Thank you. Will make representation based on the above and let you know how it goes.


Thank you. Will make representation based on the above and let you know how it goes.
Which above?
IF YOU RECEIVE A MOVING TRAFFIC PCN PLEASE READ THIS BEFORE MAKING A REPRESENTATION:

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/moving-traffic-pcns-missing-mandatory-information-the-london-local-authorities-a/msg102639/#msg102639


How do we get more people to fight their PCNs?

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/how-do-we-get-more-people-to-fight-their-pcns/msg41917/#msg41917

If you do not even make a challenge, you will surely join "The Mugged Club".

I am not omniscient. cp8759 and mrmustard are true geniuses. I know my place in the hierarchy of The Three Musketeers. 😊 "The Clinician", "The Gentleman" and "The Showman"

My e mail address for councils:

J.BOND007@H.M.S.S.c/oVAUXHALLBRIDGE/LICENSEDTOEXPOSE.SCAMS.CO.UK

Last mission accomplished:

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/southwark-to-r