3. Jamestown Road NW1 Mistake
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Jamestown Road NW1 Mistake
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Received PCN from Camden Council

I have realised that I have simply made a mistake , was new to the area and did not see the sign in all honesty.

This is the post I made on other forum and was advised to discuss is further here .


http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=150183

In addition to this my appeal which stated that there was lack of signs has been rejected and I have attached the response I have received from the council

The link below shows the pdf file with the response from the council

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1aTdNPpc2hbZq-yzyET4nzIxZAXfUc2Wr/view?usp=sharing

Any advice / help would sincerely be appreciated .
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Re: Jamestown Road NW1 Mistake
« Reply #1 on: »
The traffic order is The Camden (Arlington Road Low Traffic Neighbourhood) Traffic Order 2022 and Article 3.8 appears to be the relevant one.

Can you please show us your representations, rather than just giving us a summary?

Also did you actually miss the sign, or did you not know what it means?
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
Re: Jamestown Road NW1 Mistake
« Reply #2 on: »
Quote from: cp8759 on July 04, 2023, 09:22:37 pm
The traffic order is The Camden (Arlington Road Low Traffic Neighbourhood) Traffic Order 2022 and Article 3.8 appears to be the relevant one.

Can you please show us your representations, rather than just giving us a summary?

Also did you actually miss the sign, or did you not know what it means?

I genuinely missed the sign at the time of the night . Further more to this I said with detail that it was a mistake and I believe there are meant to be two signs . Unfortunately I do not have exact representation with me.

Is there any chance to appeal this or shall I proceed with discounted fine ?

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Re: Jamestown Road NW1 Mistake
« Reply #3 on: »
There is always a chance at adjudication, the council might mess up the evidence pack, or we might persuade the adjudicator that the sign should be illuminated, so if you want to carry on I'm happy to assist.

But you have to understand that it would be a gamble, and if you carry on and lose you will have to pay the full penalty of £130. We can't really tell you what to do, at the end of the day it's your decision whether to risk the full amount or cut your losses here.

That being said, if you want to know what your chances are, I think they're less than 50%.
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
Re: Jamestown Road NW1 Mistake
« Reply #4 on: »
Quote from: cp8759 on July 04, 2023, 09:45:30 pm
There is always a chance at adjudication, the council might mess up the evidence pack, or we might persuade the adjudicator that the sign should be illuminated, so if you want to carry on I'm happy to assist.

But you have to understand that it would be a gamble, and if you carry on and lose you will have to pay the full penalty of £130. We can't really tell you what to do, at the end of the day it's your decision whether to risk the full amount or cut your losses here.

That being said, if you want to know what your chances are, I think they're less than 50%.

Thank you very much for your insights and help. I guess I will cut my losses and proceed with discounted for this one .

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Re: Jamestown Road NW1 Mistake
« Reply #5 on: »
Pity.

I would have looked more closely at the Order which describes the location:-

both sides: from a point 7.5 metres south-west of the north-eastern wall of no. 265 Camden High Street to a point 47.24 metres south-west of the south-western kerb line of Camden High Street

But it then indicates a Code 19 for the prescribed hours.

Getting to the prescribed hours is a little more difficult although that table indicates:-

TABLE 5.2 – ITEMS INCLUDED, OR SUBSTITUTED FOR ITEMS SET OUT IN RELATION TO SIMILARLY NAMED STREETS, IN SCHEDULE 2 TO THE CAMDEN (WAITING AND LOADING RESTRICTIONS) (CIVIL ENFORCEMENT AREA) TRAFFIC ORDER 2012

https://www.camden.gov.uk/waiting-and-loading-tmo

If we go to that Order Schedule 2 relates to loading bans in that street but again gives a code 19 for prescribed hours to be found in Schedule 3.

In Schedule 3 (Table of Restricted Hours)it suggests a Code 19 restricts hours Monday to Friday to 8.30am – 9.30am; 5pm – 6.30pm .

Clear as mud but since the OP's timed contravention was at 03.31 it would have been worth a shot at an incorrect contravention.

Usually a 616 sign is 24/7 but I believe Camden have cocked it up by including the restriction in a Traffic Order and giving it prescribed hours.

Mike
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Re: Jamestown Road NW1 Mistake
« Reply #6 on: »
The OP has a Notice of Rejection so he can still appeal up to 20 July.

However as far as I can see, the reference you have found is in table 5.2, which is given effect by Article 5 of the Order, which is concerned with "Designation of waiting restrictions". As I understand it, it's common for these sorts of orders to amend waiting restrictions, parking places and so on to ensure that where vehicles have to turn around, they are able to do so without being obstructed by parked cars.

The actual moving traffic restriction is created by article 3.8:

No person shall cause any vehicle proceeding in an easterly direction in Jamestown Road, to proceed past the projected north-eastern kerb line of Arlington Road, except for a pedal cycle travelling in the lane provided for such purpose on the north-western side of the carriageway.

I'll be delighted if someone can show that I'm wrong.
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
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