Author Topic: Is this bus gate in the wrong place?  (Read 481 times)

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Is this bus gate in the wrong place?
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I have a PCN and LOR from Cambridge CC for 'being in a bus lane'. While looking at street view for the umpteenth time to see if the signs were too high, I sent the view in the wrong direction and found Elm Street. That rang a bell and on looking, it appears in the Schedule to the Traffic Order which brought the Bus Gate in Emmanuel Road into existence.
In short, the TSO says that the Bus Gate starts at a point 27 metres North East of the Junction with Elm Street (quite how you establish a point 27 metres from something which is about 3 metres wide, I don't know - but we digress). Two screen shots accompany this post: one looks north east along Emmanuel Road and shows the bus gate - two small blue discs stuck up in the air, when drivers are studying the speedo to check 20 mph and looking out for pedestrians, cyclists, and in Cambridge, lunatics on electric scooters - all who know they have the Highway Code on their side.
Keep an eye on the RH post - it appears on the left of screenshot 2 which shows Elm Street. Thats never 27 Metres is it!

I have appealed on this basis amongst others, but would appreciate views please. esp if anyone thinks the council will have an answer



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Re: Is this bus gate in the wrong place?
« Reply #1 on: »
You have only posted one screen shot.It would be far better if you just posted a GSV link to the location, like this:-
https://maps.app.goo.gl/3rzqQxDq9w4DvQpH8
(this is the middle of my village, BTW)
Having the link means we can tootle around virtually.

Please also post the PCN, all sides so we can inspect it for fatal errors. Only blank out name and address.

Sorry More detail needed
here is a link to the location - it should open showing a view to the north east along Emmanuel road Cambridge with the Bus Gate in full view. The junction with New Square which is shared with the Elm Street junction is on the very left.
that is important because the Traffic Order for Bus Gates in Cambridge states that the bus gate starts 27 metres North East from the junction with Elm Street and extends for 12 metres. Its in the Schedule at the end of the Traffic Order .pdf attached
thanks [ Guests cannot view attachments ]

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Re: Is this bus gate in the wrong place?
« Reply #3 on: »
There is no GSV link in your last post

Re: Is this bus gate in the wrong place?
« Reply #4 on: »
@peek please re-post the link as Incandescent has done.

Also please post the PCN.
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

Re: Is this bus gate in the wrong place?
« Reply #5 on: »
the link is
https://maps.app.goo.gl/QuGDdPWu7BhH7iFr5

I have tried sending files and pictures to the remote sites but they won't let me register saying I can't access them from my area

In the attachment pdf file are my two representation letters (one by post and the second by web) combined.
to follow
in a separate pdf FTLA text is a copy of the pcn, and the appeal to the tribunal
to follow
in the third pdf is the NOR.
I think I have covered most bases, though you may find something else. I hope the Tribunal does not find my note about the (mis-)use of 24 hr and 12 hr clock in the same document to be frivolous, I spent my career in marketing and advertising and Compliance with style guides and indeed with the law when in Insurance and finance were something I worked on daily. I find sloppiness in these aspects to be a bit annoying.
Thanks for looking and sorry for the shaky start here

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« Last Edit: November 27, 2023, 09:42:45 pm by cp8759 »

Re: Is this bus gate in the wrong place?
« Reply #6 on: »
second attachment

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Re: Is this bus gate in the wrong place?
« Reply #7 on: »
third

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Re: Is this bus gate in the wrong place?
« Reply #8 on: »
Distances from junctions are measured from the extended kerb line: you draw an imaginary line from the pavement of Elm Street, as if it just continued without stopping, when this imaginary line intersects the extended kerb line of Emmanuel Road (i.e. the imaginary line that shows where the kerb of Emmanuel Road would be if there were no junction), that's where you start measuring from.

Maybe you're on to something, the bus gate does appear to be placed in the wrong location:



The bus gate should start on the northern side of the pedestrian crossing:



and it should extend for 12 metres from there, along the length shown below:



Something's gone wrong with your documents, you need to re-scan them as the resolution is really poor and they're all cropped. I suggest you do this from a computer rather than a phone, smartphones are great but there's a reason people use computers to do actual work (and you're basically being a solicitor for yourself, so use the right tools).
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

Re: Is this bus gate in the wrong place?
« Reply #9 on: »
Thanks
I didn't know you could do that on google maps!
Actually that is slightly annoying - they have the South west bound bus gate in the right spot, but the North East direction is not;
the vehicle was travelling South West.
I will reload the document scans - I was trying to get them down in size and failed. PCN is attached

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Re: Is this bus gate in the wrong place?
« Reply #10 on: »
And I have just thought what to say: the vehicle is not in a bus lane at the point shown on the photo on the PCN.
the Video offered in the NOR is blank. The contravention did not occur
Does that stand up?

Re: Is this bus gate in the wrong place?
« Reply #11 on: »
Finally a good scan of the NoR

I think I have worked out what the CCC did wrong
They have transposed the 12 and the 27. 
The instructions on the location of the bus gate should read that it Starts from a point 12 metres North East of the junction with Elm Street and for 27 metres in a North easterly direction. But they have the numbers the wrong way around in the schedule.
I think they should pay me a consultancy fee for preventing further losses - but I feel they will dislike this news - lead balloons and chocolate teapots don't come close! [ Guests cannot view attachments ]

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Re: Is this bus gate in the wrong place?
« Reply #12 on: »
Here's the NoR:

















Would you like me to represent you at the tribunal, or are you happy doing it all yourself?

The important thing is to request a hearing, you should never go for a decision on the papers without a hearing.
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

Re: Is this bus gate in the wrong place?
« Reply #13 on: »
Thanks for your offer.
The Enforcement Authority has until Weds next -6 Dec -  to post its response/evidence.
I wonder if they will find it easier and cheaper to leave the case to rot and let the Tribunal find in my favour? If they do, I shall probably suggest that I contact the elected council who chairs the transport committee and the local paper or radio station or even East Anglia TV.
I will post here on Thursday morning either way and yes I probably would like your help - do you want me
1. not to be on the call or
2. join in or
3. be there but be quiet?
Thanks