3. Hounslow PCN
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Hounslow PCN
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I parked in a pay and display bay where the sign advised to 'pay at machine across the road'. I could not locate a machine across the road and took the following videos to show what could be seen. I have subsequently found out there is a machine some 330ft to the north (past the pub).

Not seeing a way to pay the charge, nor anywhere else to park, I was subsequently given the following ticket.

PCN: https://flic.kr/p/2oTBTaU
Sign: https://flic.kr/p/2oTD1rB
Video 1: https://flic.kr/p/2oTDroZ
Video 2: https://flic.kr/p/2oTD1rB

Streetview location: https://www.google.com/maps/@51.4883337,-0.2700588,3a,75y,124.51h,75.27t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sFuj5tPcPVR-ZDJYB1SDviQ!2e0!6shttps://streetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com/v1/thumbnail?panoid=Fuj5tPcPVR-ZDJYB1SDviQ&cb_client=maps_sv.tactile.gps&w=203&h=100&yaw=54.04284&pitch=0&thumbfov=100!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu
« Last Edit: August 15, 2023, 09:23:31 pm by PCN trouble »
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Re: Hounslow PCN
« Reply #1 on: »
Second post for formatting reasons. I submitted the following appeal:

The sign says to pay at the machine across the road. I checked across the road and further up the road in the direction of the arrow (please see the attached videos) and no machine could be found and therefore no way to make payment. Therefore I believe the sign to be either misleading or inaccurate.

Please cancel the PCN on the basis that it was not possible to make payment as per the instructions on the sign.

I have received the attached response and have the following questions:

1.   The rejection references paying online or by phone which the sign clearly does not mention. Any grounds here?

2.   Is 330ft, especially when there are several directions it may go, too far for a machine? The sign says ’across the road’ – is this misleading based on the machine location?

3.   Any other grounds? Would you advise taking this to adjudication?


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Re: Hounslow PCN
« Reply #2 on: »
Quote
3.   Any other grounds? Would you advise taking this to adjudication?
You seem to have a reasonably strong case, but like so many cases we see, we cannot guarantee a win at adjudication. However, with nothing to indicate alternative payment option (PbP which could be one of many apps so which one !), and the machine a long way distant from the bay. I would put them to the test, but before that is definite, can you please link to street level and tell us exactly where you parked.
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Re: Hounslow PCN
« Reply #3 on: »
Hopefully this shows the exact parking location: https://www.google.com/maps/@51.4883337,-0.2700588,3a,90y,169.16h,84.25t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sFuj5tPcPVR-ZDJYB1SDviQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu

(There is a only a single parking bay on this stretch of road, almost at the junction with the a4).

The machine is located here: https://www.google.com/maps/@51.4890555,-0.2699549,3a,75y,336.51h,90.55t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sOs67JdTdPRYFtUEbrrA1-Q!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu

It is just up past the Queens Head pub.
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Re: Hounslow PCN
« Reply #4 on: »
Google maps suggest it's 135 yards, and the distance is wholly unreasonable because it's out of sight, so if you go and buy a ticket from the machine, by the time you get back to the car you could already have a PCN.

This passage from Antonio Prendi v London Borough of Camden (2100346960, 30 September 2010) comes to mind:

Whether there is another machine within a reasonable distance will depend on the circumstances and each case will turn on its own facts. However, the Enforcement Authority cannot expect motorists to tramp the streets of their borough trying to find a machine in working order. Going too far away from the parking place may indeed involving entering a different parking zone where, restrictions and charges could differ.

I would take this all the way.

Start by drafting a representation and posting it on here for review.
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
Re: Hounslow PCN
« Reply #5 on: »
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
Re: Hounslow PCN
« Reply #6 on: »
Hi all,

Appreciate the help so far. I had somewhat forgotten about this but after my informal reps were rejected, I have now received the Notice to Owner: https://flic.kr/p/2pe9Mp6

I assume there is no technicality argument here (length of time for NTO to be issued?)?

I will prepare some formal reps to post here around the length of distance to the machine and lack of visibility or clear signage. Am I making any other arguments, such as lack of info on the sign on how to pay by phone or online?
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Re: Hounslow PCN
« Reply #7 on: »
The Notice to Owner must be served within 6 months, but anything over 3 months could be considered unfair, because enforcing authorities must act fairly and expeditiously. This would be under the statutory ground of "the penalty exceeds.......in the circumstances of the case"
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Re: Hounslow PCN
« Reply #8 on: »
Two additional arguments:

1) As Incandescent points out the council has been dilatory in issuing the notice to owner, and there is no good reason for the delay.
2) Check the designation of the bay, there's various references to Sutton Lane North in the order and you want to confirm that there's an entry that matches the bay you were parked in, and the bay markings on the road match the wording of the order to the letter. If there is any discrepancy that you can find, that opens a further avenue.
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
Re: Hounslow PCN
« Reply #9 on: »
Thank you both.

In regards to the Management Order, to me it doesn't look like there is any reference to this bay. My thought process is that it should appear under Schedule 4 (permitted hours 9am - 6pm Monday to Friday, max stay 4 hours), but the entries relating to Sutton Lane North (entries 62 - 68) all have locations adjacent to specific house numbers. There is no housing where my bay is,  with all the housing on a different stretch of Sutton Lane North. Am I interpreting this correctly?
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Re: Hounslow PCN
« Reply #10 on: »
I've started a outline draft for formal reps so I appreciate any comments / amendments:

I contest the charge on the following basis:

1)   Alleged contravention did not occur – The closest payment machine is 135 yards away and entirely out of sight from the parking bay. This is completely unreasonable and a motorist should not be expected to hunt down a payment machine which could take a significant amount of time and leads to the possibility of being issued a ticket by the time a motorist returns to the car. The Council’s rejection letter claims that “There is a sign where you parked that explains that the bay is...for people paying to park by phone or online”. As can clearly be seen in the photos, this is plainly inaccurate and the sign only offers the option to ‘pay at machine across road’. This only leaves the motorist with the option of paying at a machine which is not ‘across road’ but instead a significant distance away and out of sight

2)   Penalty exceeds amount applicable in the circumstances – The Notice to Owner was served 102 days after the alleged offence (date of PCN 20/7/23 and NTO served on 28/10/23). Local Authorities must act fairly and expeditiously, and there is no good reason for the delay in this instance

3)   Alleged contravention did not occur – The parking bay in question does not appear in The London Borough of Hounslow (West Chiswick) (Parking Places) (No.13) Order 2019. All references to parking bays on Sutton Lane North on The Order are referenced by their proximity to various house numbers. The housing is on a separate stretch of Sutton Lane North and there is clearly no housing in the proximity of the parking bay where the alleged contravention took place. Therefore, the parking bay has not been correctly designated within the Management Plan and the Local Authority has no authority to enforce the parking restrictions associated with this bay
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Re: Hounslow PCN
« Reply #11 on: »
Looking at the order I think the bay is designated because number 22 is the building on the western side of the road that Google incorrectly identifies as 22 Cedars Road, see the entry at item 68 on page 31 of the order.

However if you measure from the southern wall of that building, it's clear that the bay is not marked correctly:



I'd amend your draft to incorporate this point.
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
Re: Hounslow PCN
« Reply #12 on: »
You are entirely correct, that building is 22 Sutton Lane North and so entry 68 of Schedule 4 is the entry relating to this bay.

I'm not confident I'm reading it correctly, but is it the case that if you measure a point 8.1m south of the southernmost wall then the bay runs NORTHWARDS for a distance of 6m. The Order notes the bay as running southwards so is flawed?
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Re: Hounslow PCN
« Reply #13 on: »
Replace point 3 with this:

3) The alleged contravention did not occur: the The London Borough of Hounslow (West Chiswick) (Parking Places) (No.13) Order 2009 provides at item 68 of schedule 4 that there is a bay on Sutton Lane North on the "south-east side, from a point 8.1 metres south of the southernmost wall of No. 22 Sutton Lane North, southwards for a distance of 6.0 metres".

The bay is incorrectly marked and the location where my vehicle was stationary is not within the parking place designated by the order, notwithstanding the presence of bay markings. I refer you to the measurements shown at imgur.com/Z2XUnfT which illustrate the point: if one takes a point 8.1 metres south of the southernmost wall of No. 22 Sutton Lane North, one finds himself almost at the southern end of the bay, rather than at the northern end. If my car was not within a duly designated parking place, the contravention cannot have occurred in any event.

Add https:// to the URL in the representation, I can't do it in the draft above as it otherwise embeds the image into the post.
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
Re: Hounslow PCN
« Reply #14 on: »
Thank you CP. I have made reps on the 3 points, including your exact wording and link for point 3, and will come back to let you know of the outcome / prepare for Tribunal.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2023, 07:54:39 pm by PCN trouble »
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