Author Topic: Hounslow PCN  (Read 982 times)

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Re: Hounslow PCN
« Reply #15 on: »
Rejection of reps now received:

<a data-flickr-embed="true" href="https://www.flickr.com/photos/198880276@N02/53415020034/in/dateposted-public/" title="Rejection of reps 1"><img src="https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53415020034_b8fb83ed5f_z.jpg" width="472" height="621" alt="Rejection of reps 1"/></a><script async src="//embedr.flickr.com/assets/client-code.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

<a data-flickr-embed="true" href="https://www.flickr.com/photos/198880276@N02/53415132375/in/dateposted-public/" title="Rejection of reps 2"><img src="https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53415132375_92fb3f9bf3_z.jpg" width="480" height="640" alt="Rejection of reps 2"/></a><script async src="//embedr.flickr.com/assets/client-code.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

They mention that paying by phone was an option but there is no reference to this on the signage that I can see so how is a driver to know?

It seems to me there is strong case to put to the adjucator (and full penalty is in play so no downside in appealing?). Any opinions or comments on how best to tackle the appeal would be appreciated.

Re: Hounslow PCN
« Reply #16 on: »
If the discount has not been re-offered, then it is a total no-brainer to take them to London Tribunals, as the penalty remains the same, and there are no additional costs.

Put their hand to the fire !

Re: Hounslow PCN
« Reply #17 on: »
I am preparing to submit my appeal to the London Tribunals so could the following be checked for errors or improvements please:

1)  Alleged contravention did not occur – The closest payment machine is 135 yards away and entirely out of sight from the parking bay. This is completely unreasonable and a motorist should not be expected to hunt down a payment machine which could take a significant amount of time and leads to the possibility of being issued a ticket by the time a motorist returns to the car. The Council’s rejection letter claims that “There is a sign where you parked that explains that the bay is...for people paying to park by phone or online”. As can clearly be seen in the photos, this is plainly inaccurate and the sign only offers the option to ‘pay at machine across road’. This only leaves the motorist with the option of paying at a machine which is not ‘across road’ but instead a completely unreasonable distance away and out of sight

2)  Penalty exceeds amount applicable in the circumstances – The Notice to Owner was served 102 days after the alleged offence (date of PCN 20/7/23 and NTO served on 28/10/23). Local Authorities must act fairly and expeditiously, and there is no good reason for the delay in this instance

3) The alleged contravention did not occur - The London Borough of Hounslow (West Chiswick) (Parking Places) (No.13) Order 2009 provides at item 68 of schedule 4 that there is a bay on Sutton Lane North on the "south-east side, from a point 8.1 metres south of the southernmost wall of No. 22 Sutton Lane North, southwards for a distance of 6.0 metres".

The bay is incorrectly marked and the location where my vehicle was stationary is not within the parking place designated by the order, notwithstanding the presence of bay markings. I refer you to the measurements shown at
which illustrate the point: if one takes a point 8.1 metres south of the southernmost wall of No. 22 Sutton Lane North, one finds himself almost at the southern end of the bay, rather than at the northern end. If my car was not within a duly designated parking place, the contravention cannot have occurred in any event

4) The alleged contravention did not occur - The Rejection of Representation letter dated 19th December 2023 states “I like to advise that both Pay & Display and Pay By Phone (PBP) cashless solutions are available for the convenience of the motorists parking in the Sutton Lane North Shared us bay. A cashless solution is offered which should be used as an alternative should the pay and display machine not be accessible.”

This clearly demonstrates that is the Council’s intention to offer a cashless solution and that there are circumstances where the pay and display machine might not be accessible (for example when it too far away and out of sight). However, the images show that no pay by phone option was offered on the signage which only offers ‘pay at machine across the road’. As the rejection letter confirms that pay by phone should be “available”, it can only be concluded that the signage is inadequate and insufficient


Would anyone fancy representing me by any chance as the point around the location of the bay is quite technical and I don't think I could robustly explain it to an adjucator?
« Last Edit: January 15, 2024, 03:18:53 pm by PCN trouble »

Re: Hounslow PCN
« Reply #18 on: »
Where are the council's photos pl? It's better to reference and ridicule theirs than introduce your own.

I parked and saw the relevant traffic sign - see the council's evidence;
This states '*****'.

Once you've disposed of this issue - that it doesn't refer to methods of payment- then you return to where the mythical payment instructions are specified..and they'll no doubt be on the machine. So, the whole issue of their response and rationale is predicated on the motorist finding the machine in the first place, which brings you back to the sign and the arrow.

Don't make exaggerated claims but IMO refer to the decision you've got and focus on the underlying principles: each case turns on its own facts and those in your case are that the council are relying upon a sign with an arrow to convey the meaning that the machine lies in one of three possible exit roads beyond a mini- roundabout.

..is a start which can be fleshed out.

Re: Hounslow PCN
« Reply #19 on: »
Thank you H, very helpful. This is the Council photo of the signage: https://flic.kr/p/2psLLEs

All other Council photos are of my car parked in the bay, which I don't dispute.

Does this representation read better:

I parked in the bay and noted the contents of the traffic sign. As shown in the Council's photo, the only option to pay for parking was to ‘pay at machine across the road’. At this stage I looked for a parking machine ‘across the road’ as per the sign. My interpretation of across the road would be to mean on the other side of the same road. However, no machine is present across the road.

There was also an arrow on the sign pointing up the road and so I walked in this direction to check for a machine. I arrived at a roundabout which had 3 exits from it. I could see no machine from the roundabout and could not possibly imagine that a driver was expected to guess between 3 possible roads, especially given the considerable distance that would take a driver from the parking space. Therefore, I drew the conclusion that the machine must have either not been installed yet (the road signs looked new to my eye) or had been removed for repairs / replacing etc. Given that there was no possible way for a motorist to pay for parking as instructed by the road sign, I concluded that it was reasonable to park within the space.

Using Google maps it is possible to identify a parking machine circa 135 metres away which is the nearest to the parking bay. It is also entirely out of sight from the parking bay and a motorist would have to choose between 3 possible roundabout exits in order to find it. I believe this is entirely unreasonable and leads to the farcical possibility of as motorist being issued a ticket by the time they are able to locate the machine, pay for parking and return to their car.

Hounslow’s formal response does not dispute that it is an unreasonable machine location in relation to the parking bay. Their response to this point is that ‘cashless solutions are available’. However, this leads to the question of how a motorist is to know this and what steps should be taken to utilise the cashless solution? Certainly the sign makes no reference or indication of this, only offering the option to ‘pay at machine across the road’. If the Council does offer a cashless solution as their response indicates, then the only possible place that instructions on how to use it could be found are on the payment machine. I do not know if this is the case or not as no photo of the machine or its location has been produced by the Council. This leads to a circular argument - in order to mitigate the unreasonable location of the machine, the Council rely on the cashless solution for which the machine has to be located!

I am also of the belief that the bay is marked incorrectly resulting in the location where my vehicle was parked not being within the parking place designated by The London Borough of Hounslow (West Chiswick) (Parking Places) (No.13) Order 2009 (notwithstanding the presence of bay markings). Item 68 of schedule 4 stipulates that there is a bay on Sutton Lane North on the "south-east side, from a point 8.1 metres south of the southernmost wall of No. 22 Sutton Lane North, southwards for a distance of 6.0 metres". I refer you to the measurements shown at
which illustrate the point: if one takes a point 8.1 metres south of the southernmost wall of No. 22 Sutton Lane North, one finds himself almost at the southern end of the bay, rather than at the northern end. If my car was not within a duly designated parking place, the contravention cannot have occurred in any event.

Finally, the Notice to Owner was served 102 days after the alleged offence (date of PCN 20/7/23 and NTO served on 28/10/23). Local Authorities are required to act fairly and expeditiously, and there is no good reason for the delay in this instance.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2024, 03:32:43 pm by PCN trouble »

Re: Hounslow PCN
« Reply #20 on: »
Follow up question - the date on the Notice of Rejection is 19th December so does this mean I have until tomorrow to appeal to London Tribunals (28 days after date of service)? Many thanks

Re: Hounslow PCN
« Reply #21 on: »
The 28th day is today assuming the Notice of Rejection was received on the second working day after posting. The tribunal won't refuse to register an Appeal which is only 1 day later.

I have beaten a Hounslow PCN based on the wording being wrong so you might want me to be your free representative. Email mrmustard@zoho.com
I help you pro bono (for free). I now ask that a £40 donation is made to the North London Hospice before I take over your case. I have an 85% success rate across 2,000 PCNs but some PCNs can't be beaten and I will tell you if your case looks hopeless before asking you to donate.

Re: Hounslow PCN
« Reply #22 on: »
Thanks Mr Mustard, have emailed you

Re: Hounslow PCN
« Reply #23 on: »
Hounslow opted not to contest this so a successful outcome.

Thanks for all member input, and to Mr Mustard for being ready to take them on at Tribunal.
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Re: Hounslow PCN
« Reply #24 on: »
Good.  Did they say why?
IF YOU RECEIVE A MOVING TRAFFIC PCN PLEASE READ THIS BEFORE MAKING A REPRESENTATION:

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/moving-traffic-pcns-missing-mandatory-information-the-london-local-authorities-a/msg102639/#msg102639


How do we get more people to fight their PCNs?

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/how-do-we-get-more-people-to-fight-their-pcns/msg41917/#msg41917

If you do not even make a challenge, you will surely join "The Mugged Club".

I am not omniscient. cp8759 and mrmustard are true geniuses. I know my place in the hierarchy of The Three Musketeers. 😊 "The Clinician", "The Gentleman" and "The Showman"

My e mail address for councils:

J.BOND007@H.M.S.S.c/oVAUXHALLBRIDGE/LICENSEDTOEXPOSE.SCAMS.CO.UK

Last mission accomplished:

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/southwark-to-r