Free Traffic Legal Advice

Hi Folks,

here are some of the contents of the thread I originally posted on pepipoo on 20/03/23:

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=149091&st=20&gopid=1778019

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Hello, I would welcome some advice on this please. London Borough of Hounslow have issued us a PCN for the contravention of "Being in a Bus Lane".

The bus lane in question is on Chiswick High Road, a short bus lane along which are situated 3 Parking and Loading bays. You cannot park in these bays without crossing said Bus Lane. Our vehicle is photographed having tried to park in the first bay and then spotting a more suitable space in the adjoining bay and so maneuvering to the next spot. Loading is permitted "Mon-Sat, 7am - 7pm, 20 mins, No return within 1 hour". I realise that this is not a parking fine, however we parked for 10 mins to enter the shop opposite the bay to return an item, and have the receipt for the transaction, dated and timestamped.

Are there any grounds to contest this based on the fact that we were simply trying to access the loading bay not drive along a bus lane? We had absolutely no other reason to be in the bus lane as it can clearly be seen that the high road we were actually driving along was completely clear anyway!

longitude: -0.26811 latitude: 51.49296

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Schofeldt
Fri, 31 Mar 2023 - 13:16
Post #21

Just wait for the Enforcement Notice. If they wish to go to the 5th set, that is their problem. As ever, if I represent anyone re a London Bus lane PCN and lose at the Tribunal, I will pay £65 towards it. What a liberty!

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efunc
post Fri, 31 Mar 2023 - 22:53
Post #22

I see, so you advise making a formal representation using the Enforcement Notice form? Would I just resubmit the original representation already sent to them? Presumably this is also decided by the council, and would then have to be appealed.

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Schofeldt
post Sat, 1 Apr 2023 - 01:28
Post #23

Depends how you want to play it. I would send something stronger next time and to the point.

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efunc
post Sat, 1 Apr 2023 - 03:16
Post #24

Understood, I'll see what I can do. It was my partner driving, I was just the passenger. Like most people she is strongly deterred following the first setback would prefer to settle up right now, but I'll try to convince her to persevere.

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Schofeldt
post Sat, 1 Apr 2023 - 07:58
Post #25

Trust us! If she settles now, she will join The Mugged Club. This is their game. If she continues and fights, the VCA certificate will be found to be invalid.

This should convince her: http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showto...t=#entry1768834

Question: why do you think they have applied for new certificates?

Answer: so that the new certificates satisfy the criterion of admissibility of evidence at the Tribunal.

We have just successfully got a Greenwich PCN cancelled before the Tribunal stage.

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cp8759
post Sat, 1 Apr 2023 - 15:22
Post #26


QUOTE (efunc @ Sat, 1 Apr 2023 - 03:16) *

Understood, I'll see what I can do. It was my partner driving, I was just the passenger. Like most people she is strongly deterred following the first setback would prefer to settle up right now, but I'll try to convince her to persevere.

This is what councils count on. Take the key decision in Davy Duthieuw v London Borough of Ealing listed here: https://www.londontribunals.gov.uk/eat/key-cases

I found out during the proceedings that Ealing council had issued 13 PCNs on the day, and only Mr Duthieuw appealed, everyone else paid. So basically as the PCNs were all invalid, the first 12 people got mugged. Ask your partner if she wants to join the mugged club, or the savvy Davy club.

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Schofeldt
post Sat, 1 Apr 2023 - 15:27
Post #27

I have been thinking a lot about this appalling attitude. Is it ignorance? Or is it wilful maladministration? All I do know is that we have had 100% success as it concerns a fundamental point of law. I reckon between cp and me we have scored over 50 successes so far. His ca. double mine. And there are more in the pipeline.

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efunc
post Sun, 7 May 2023 - 00:10
Post #28

QUOTE (cp8759 @ Sat, 1 Apr 2023 - 14:22) *

I found out during the proceedings that Ealing council had issued 13 PCNs on the day, and only Mr Duthieuw appealed, everyone else paid. So basically as the PCNs were all invalid, the first 12 people got mugged. Ask your partner if she wants to join the mugged club, or the savvy Davy club.

After much discussion, and convincing of my partner, I can confirm that we wish to sign up to the savvy davy club. The following document just arrived on our doormat:








So, presumably this representation would aim to be a bit more persuasive?

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cp8759
post Mon, 8 May 2023 - 21:36
Post #29

Just make the same representation again and let us know when you get the Notice of Rejection. One of us will then sort out the tribunal appeal for you.

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efunc
post Tue, 9 May 2023 - 22:51
Post #30

Thank you, we will do that and report back.

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efunc
post Thu, 8 Jun 2023 - 14:19
Post #31

So Hounslow have finally responded:

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John U.K.
post Thu, 8 Jun 2023 - 15:10
Post #32

Am I alone in wondering what Mr Squiggle, the Appeals and Monitoring Officer, is on???

Has he read his department's letter of the 30th.March (post#20)?

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Schofeldt
post Today, 08:06
Post #34

efunc: It is tribunal time and I am happy to represent you if you so wish. There is also a wording issue with the Enforcement Notice and, of course, they do not have a VCA certificate which satisfies the criterions of admissibility of evidence provided at para. 7 (2) of Schedule 1 of the LLA Act 1996 (as amended). This kind of intransigent approach from councils is converting into costs, most recently against Brent and Harrow. 2230136090 achieved costs and is similar in that they used a VCA certificate which did not apply.

Thanks for that cp. I hadn't realised that the letter we received was not actually a Notice of Rejection. The process seems a little terrifying since we've never taken things as far as being issued an Order for Recovery!

Who does one then make a statutory declaration to? Is it the council again, or whoever they've appointed to recover the vehicle? Thanks for the info, much appreciated.

Process here
https://www.londontribunals.gov.uk/eat/understanding-enforcement-process/bus-lane-pcn-enforcement-process

Scroll down to 'Charge Certificate' et seq.

I see, thank you all. Understood, so this is a penultimate stage. After the Order for Recovery they would still need to go back to the court and obtain a Warrant of Execution. Sounds simple enough, we will hold tight!

efunc
What is the status of your PCN on Hounslow's website?

Most Council's allow you to see a timeline.

Answered my own question: still at £65 - see
https://hounslow.tarantoportal.com/

You need to keep on eye on this for any changes in amount or status.

Keep an eye out on the amount due on the council website, once it goes up to £204 you know they've registered the debt and can file a statutory declaration with the Traffic Enforcement Centre.

All you'll need to do is download and print form PE3 from https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/form-pe3-challenge-an-unpaid-penalty-charge-notice and fill it in (but don't sign it!), the relevant box is "I made representations about the penalty charge to the local authority concerned within 28 days of the service of the Notice to Owner/Enforcement Notice/Penalty Charge Notice, but did not receive a rejection notice".

The "reasons" box must be left blank, and note that the "Applicant" in the box in the top-left corner is the London Borough of Hounslow, not you.

You will then have to make an appointment at the local county court to sign it in front of a court officer (it's free), you can then scan and email it to tec@justice.gov.uk with the PCN number in the subject line.

You should receive an Order for Recovery in the post, but you can't really rely on that as there's always a chance it might go missing, and if it does and you don't know it's been sent you could miss the deadline, and then you're really screwed.

The one way to be 100% sure that the debt is or isn't registered with TEC is to call them up and check, contact details are here: https://www.find-court-tribunal.service.gov.uk/courts/traffic-enforcement-centre-tec

That's remarkable cp! Thanks for that information. One wonders why they procured and installed non-compliant hardware if it places them at such an obvious disadvantage.

I've been watching the hounslow portal and it still shows no change in the penalty amount. Is it actually necessary to wait until we see this/or receive notification of the statutory declaration or Order for Recovery before we submit the PE3. Or could we get the form notorised and submitted before that? My partner, the keeper/driver, is away for a week so I just want to check how much time we'll be allowed to submit the form should anything updated this week for example while she's away.