Author Topic: Hounslow Borough PCN, 85 no valid ticket, Boston Manor park  (Read 349 times)

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dj.esco

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Hounslow Borough PCN, 85 no valid ticket, Boston Manor park
« on: November 22, 2023, 11:15:04 am »
Hi all,
New to the forum so 'Hello@ and was invited to post my issue on here.

I receieved a PCN, contravention 85 - not displaying or purchaing a virtual ticket, bu London Borough of Hounslow yesterday even though I had purchased online and have evidence in my app history and via email. The PCN is timed at 11:08 when it can clearly be seen I purchase parking for 1 hour from 11:01 to 12:01.

Is this a straight forward appeal or do I need to consider other forms of appeal, please advise.

Below are the images and link to my orginal Pepipoo thread to avoid duplication of information should anyone require it:











http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=152133

Any advice greatly appreciated!
« Last Edit: November 22, 2023, 11:53:42 pm by cp8759 »

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cp8759

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Re: Hounslow Borough PCN, 85 no valid ticket, Boston Manor park
« Reply #1 on: November 22, 2023, 11:55:53 pm »
It should be a straightforward appeal, make representations basically telling the council what you've told us and let's see what they come back with.

I have requested the parking places order, just in case.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2023, 12:01:00 am by cp8759 »
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law. Section 6 of the Interpretation Act 1978 applies to everything I post as it would apply to an Act of Parliament. I am a Conservative councillor, this means some people think I am "scum". I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor nor a barrister.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

dj.esco

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Re: Hounslow Borough PCN, 85 no valid ticket, Boston Manor park
« Reply #2 on: November 23, 2023, 11:49:11 am »
Thanks cp8759,
Will make the appeal today and keep you updated via this thread.

dj.esco

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Re: Hounslow Borough PCN, 85 no valid ticket, Boston Manor park
« Reply #3 on: November 23, 2023, 12:43:30 pm »
Hi there, as an update, logged in to make an appeal and viewed the images. The images (PSB) the enforcement officer has taken include 2 that show a sign stuck in the ground stating "reserved for friends of Boston Manor permit only". I do not recall seeing this sign on parking but the images show them clearly.

Is there still grounds for appeal here? 

https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img922/4461/RBlmdp.png
https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img923/7144/cKF9Nh.png
https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img923/6002/csBXJM.png
https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img924/2935/SAjogZ.png
https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img922/4338/eqeO1P.png
https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img924/8995/WDykBI.png

H C Andersen

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Re: Hounslow Borough PCN, 85 no valid ticket, Boston Manor park
« Reply #4 on: November 23, 2023, 12:54:57 pm »
What has paying got to do with it?

Code specific suffixes apply?

Unless the Ts and Cs noticeboard brings this condition to a motorist's attention, by way of thou shalt not park in a bay indicated as being reserved to permit holders etc. and indicates that to do so is a contravention for which a penalty is payable then IMO they're stuffed.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2023, 01:01:44 pm by H C Andersen »

dj.esco

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Re: Hounslow Borough PCN, 85 no valid ticket, Boston Manor park
« Reply #5 on: November 23, 2023, 01:16:07 pm »
Noticed the small images i got from copying and pasting from their viewer were a little blurry - these screen shots may be better:
https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img922/2259/NW7beo.jpg
https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img924/4604/DHITr6.jpg

Any input appreciated, thanks!

cp8759

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Re: Hounslow Borough PCN, 85 no valid ticket, Boston Manor park
« Reply #6 on: November 25, 2023, 11:21:34 am »
As H C Andersen has explained, if there's nothing on the tariff board about spaces reserved for permit holders, then the "friends of Boston Manor" signs don't mean diddly squat.

The tariff board says:



You haven't done any of those things, so you cannot be required to pay a penalty charge, end of.

Arguably if someone parked in one of those bays with a "friends of Boston Manor" permit, they could be issued a PCN because they're not displaying a valid pay and display ticket or disabled badge, which is what the tariff board requires.
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law. Section 6 of the Interpretation Act 1978 applies to everything I post as it would apply to an Act of Parliament. I am a Conservative councillor, this means some people think I am "scum". I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor nor a barrister.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

dj.esco

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Re: Hounslow Borough PCN, 85 no valid ticket, Boston Manor park
« Reply #7 on: November 26, 2023, 08:50:11 am »
Thanks for the input guys.

My thinking was the similar after I had seen the images and then revisited my pictures of the tariff board.

My appeal will be along the lines of "I believe I have not contravened any parking rules based on the fact I had a valid ticket to cover my vehicle from time XX to YY and adhered to all requirements as stated on the tariff board. At no point does it state on the tariff board that a PCN is incurred by parking in a Friends of Boston Manor signposted bay but rather a PCN is incurred by 1.Failing to display a valid parking ticket or disabled badge, 2.Not parking within a bay, 3.Allowing your ticket to be used another person. I have satisfied all 3 of these requirements."

Will keep you updated on how I get on.

cp8759

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Re: Hounslow Borough PCN, 85 no valid ticket, Boston Manor park
« Reply #8 on: November 26, 2023, 02:45:54 pm »
My appeal will be along the lines of "I believe I have not contravened any parking rules based on the fact I had a valid ticket to cover my vehicle from time XX to YY and adhered to all requirements as stated on the tariff board. At no point does it state on the tariff board that a PCN is incurred by parking in a Friends of Boston Manor signposted bay but rather a PCN is incurred by 1.Failing to display a valid parking ticket or disabled badge, 2.Not parking within a bay, 3.Allowing your ticket to be used another person. I have satisfied all 3 of these requirements."
@dj.esco no, why on Earth would you do that?

The council hasn't mentioned anything about the Friends of Boston Manor signs, so why would you bring it up yourself? You're not required to make the council's case for them, so why would you?

If you've sent that already it's too late, but if not let me know and I'll draft something more sensible for you.
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law. Section 6 of the Interpretation Act 1978 applies to everything I post as it would apply to an Act of Parliament. I am a Conservative councillor, this means some people think I am "scum". I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor nor a barrister.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

dj.esco

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Re: Hounslow Borough PCN, 85 no valid ticket, Boston Manor park
« Reply #9 on: November 26, 2023, 03:08:39 pm »
No, I've not sent off anything yet - yes, please help with a draft in that case!

cp8759

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Re: Hounslow Borough PCN, 85 no valid ticket, Boston Manor park
« Reply #10 on: November 26, 2023, 04:04:00 pm »
Here you go:

Dear London Borough of Hounslow,

I challenge liability for PCN NJ39134201 on the ground that the alleged contravention did not occur. The allegation on the PCN is "Parked without a valid virtual permit or clearly displaying a valid physical permit where required", but at the material time I had obtained a valid permit to park via the PayByPhone system, I attach a copy of my parking session receipt showing that parking was paid for from 11:01 am to 12:01 pm.

It thus appears the PCN must have been issued owing to a mistake on the part of the CEO, I trust this will be fed back to prevent a reoccurance.

Yours faithfully,


Send it online and keep a screenshot of the confirmation page.
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law. Section 6 of the Interpretation Act 1978 applies to everything I post as it would apply to an Act of Parliament. I am a Conservative councillor, this means some people think I am "scum". I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor nor a barrister.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

dj.esco

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Re: Hounslow Borough PCN, 85 no valid ticket, Boston Manor park
« Reply #11 on: November 27, 2023, 05:57:55 pm »
Thank you very much for the above - appeal lodged and submission data recorded. Will update as and when, thanks.

dj.esco

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Re: Hounslow Borough PCN, 85 no valid ticket, Boston Manor park
« Reply #12 on: November 29, 2023, 03:19:38 pm »
Hi all,
Received a response today in regards to my appeal (image links below, 2 pages).
They say my appeal is invalid because of the following:

There is a sign where you parked that explains that the bay you parked in is for people with a
permit.
You were given a PCN for parking without a permit that was both valid and clearly displayed.
Even if you have a permit, you have to display it so that a Civil Enforcement Officer can see all
its details.
You were parked in a bay for people with a permit. Paying to park by phone or online is not
usable here; it is only usable in bays where the signs say that it can be used.


https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img922/2599/LlPENq.jpg
https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img924/7295/5XWbSN.jpg

As mentioned and shown on my original photos from the day, at no point does it state on the tariff board or the ticket machine that there are designated bays for certain types of permits. I double checked this when I parked (I hadn't noticed the sign post behind the bay I parked in until after the photos were disclosed).

Any advice on the next step would be appreciated - I feel that I must be able to contest this based on the tariff board alone.

cp8759

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Re: Hounslow Borough PCN, 85 no valid ticket, Boston Manor park
« Reply #13 on: December 02, 2023, 02:58:37 pm »
Any advice on the next step would be appreciated - I feel that I must be able to contest this based on the tariff board alone.
I agree, I would suggest you wait for the notice to owner and we can take it from there.
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law. Section 6 of the Interpretation Act 1978 applies to everything I post as it would apply to an Act of Parliament. I am a Conservative councillor, this means some people think I am "scum". I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor nor a barrister.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

cp8759

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« Last Edit: March 24, 2024, 07:14:38 pm by cp8759 »
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law. Section 6 of the Interpretation Act 1978 applies to everything I post as it would apply to an Act of Parliament. I am a Conservative councillor, this means some people think I am "scum". I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor nor a barrister.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order