Author Topic: Hillingdon PCN Code 62 parked on footpath, but road signs allow parking  (Read 707 times)

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pepipooper

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Hi All,

I was visiting a friend in Hayes and parked as I usually do fully on the footpath, as you are supposed to on that road. I was parked next to double yellows on the road as it was busy and I have seen other cars parked there before. There was plenty of space for pedestrians on the footpath next to my car. I realise now that you're not supposed to do this, though the signage isn't clear about which sections of the footpath you can park on (it seems like all) and since I have seen other cars parked there I assumed it was okay.

Received a PCN with contravention code 62 - parked with one or more wheels on or over a footpath or any part of a road other than a carriageway. There are signs on both ends of the road that tell you to park with all wheels on the footpath. Can I challenge on the grounds of unclear signage/incorrect contravention code or any other grounds?

PCN - https://postimg.cc/WhGmwyjc
Signs allowing parking - https://postimg.cc/S215dc10
Street view of the road - https://maps.app.goo.gl/ZzXVtf6JTFWvaPh48

Thanks in advance.

(copied from my post on pepipoo.com)
« Last Edit: November 04, 2023, 08:09:42 pm by cp8759 »

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Pastmybest

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Re: Hillingdon PCN Code 62 parked on footpath, but road signs allow parking
« Reply #1 on: November 04, 2023, 03:21:29 pm »
The council will say that the allowance of footway parking ends with the start of the yellow lines or that the sign on St Mary's walk apply neither are correct

The DYL prohibits waiting at any time from the property line to the centre of the carriageway but that is not the contravention you have been charged with,

This sign

https://maps.app.goo.gl/mFSN84QDUhRDMEKt6

outside 9  St Mary's road starts the footway parking, there is not an end of sign so as far as you know footway parking is allowed simple informal challenge

Dear Mr Parking

I challenge the issue of PCN number xxxxxxxx on the basis that the contravention did not occur.

Outside of number 9 St Mary's road is a sign instructing parking on the footpath  i passed this sign and parked there is not a sign on St Mary's road between the sign at number 9 and where i parked outside number 33 so i was parked as per the signage and not in contravention. The PCN should now be cancelled as no contravention occurred
« Last Edit: November 04, 2023, 08:05:37 pm by cp8759 »
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cp8759

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Re: Hillingdon PCN Code 62 parked on footpath, but road signs allow parking
« Reply #2 on: November 04, 2023, 08:11:51 pm »
Go with Pastmybest's draft, the contravention is clearly not sustainable as the signs allow footway parking at this location. They could have issued a PCN for waiting in a restricted street during prescribed hours, but it's far too late for that now.
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law. Section 6 of the Interpretation Act 1978 applies to everything I post as it would apply to an Act of Parliament. I am a Conservative councillor, this means some people think I am "scum". I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor nor a barrister.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

pepipooper

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Re: Hillingdon PCN Code 62 parked on footpath, but road signs allow parking
« Reply #3 on: November 08, 2023, 02:39:47 pm »
The council will say that the allowance of footway parking ends with the start of the yellow lines or that the sign on St Mary's walk apply neither are correct

The DYL prohibits waiting at any time from the property line to the centre of the carriageway but that is not the contravention you have been charged with,

This sign

https://maps.app.goo.gl/mFSN84QDUhRDMEKt6

outside 9  St Mary's road starts the footway parking, there is not an end of sign so as far as you know footway parking is allowed simple informal challenge

Dear Mr Parking

I challenge the issue of PCN number xxxxxxxx on the basis that the contravention did not occur.

Outside of number 9 St Mary's road is a sign instructing parking on the footpath  i passed this sign and parked there is not a sign on St Mary's road between the sign at number 9 and where i parked outside number 33 so i was parked as per the signage and not in contravention. The PCN should now be cancelled as no contravention occurred

Thanks Pastmybest and cp8759 for the replies. It's been a week and a half since I got the ticket on the windscreen but still haven't received anything in the mail. Should I wait for a letter or go ahead with the informal challenge anyway?

John U.K.

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Re: Hillingdon PCN Code 62 parked on footpath, but road signs allow parking
« Reply #4 on: November 08, 2023, 03:39:28 pm »
Quote
Should I wait for a letter or go ahead with the informal challenge anyway?

Submit online and get screenshot/receipt. Get it in before the discount expires and the Council will usually re-offer the discount when they reject.

The PCN puts the ball in your court, unless you make a challenge the next 'letter' from the Council will be the NtO.
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pepipooper

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Re: Hillingdon PCN Code 62 parked on footpath, but road signs allow parking
« Reply #5 on: December 13, 2023, 02:11:28 pm »
Hi All,

Thanks for the advice - I submitted the challenge as advised within the 14 days (https://postimg.cc/QVYPQCXD).

I got a rejection letter on 09/12 (https://postimg.cc/sBVPvPGJ - pt1, https://postimg.cc/DS8Zw8BM - pt2), but their explanation for rejection makes no sense to me. They claim the sign only applies in one direction and I was on the wrong side, but the road is bookended by the same sign and I was between both. What does their reasoning mean and is it valid? Please advise on how to proceed.
Also, the letter is dated 22/11 which means I received it once the 14 day discounted period had already passed. Is there anything I can do about this?

The old image links expired so reuploaded here:
https://postimg.cc/8jjhvPCq - pcn
https://postimg.cc/ts55pvv5 - road sign

Cheers

pepipooper

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Re: Hillingdon PCN Code 62 parked on footpath, but road signs allow parking
« Reply #6 on: December 16, 2023, 02:02:02 pm »
Would appreciate some help on this if anyone has any thoughts. Thanks

Incandescent

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Re: Hillingdon PCN Code 62 parked on footpath, but road signs allow parking
« Reply #7 on: December 16, 2023, 10:59:48 pm »
Their letter hints that the allowed parking area ends at the double-yellow lines, so you should not have parked there because of them, plus the sign indicating the end of off-carriagway parking as per the GSV view.  However, you haven't walloped for parking by the double-yellow lines, but for parking off-carriageway. I think the CEO made a mistake and should have issued the PCN for parking adjacent to the double-yellows because these cover the footways and verges, so you'd be totally bang-to-rights, but for some reason didn't.

What we have found with a lot of these cases where the car was parked outside the signed area, is that when the council made its resolution to allow parking off-carriageway, it just named the streets involved, and didn't bother to define the lengths allowed in each street. Yours might be a similar case. Our administrator, COP8759 knows this aspect in more detail than me, so hopefully will respond.

H C Andersen

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Re: Hillingdon PCN Code 62 parked on footpath, but road signs allow parking
« Reply #8 on: December 17, 2023, 04:36:53 pm »
This isn't to do with any resolution as such, their position is impossible with or without one.

OP, the first thing I recommend is that you set out clearly the situation as regards signs.

The authority will be aware that the council have placed a sign to diagram 668 o/s no. 9 St. Mary's Road. The conveys the meaning that on this side of the road a vehicle may park with 4 wheels on the footway. This permission remains in effect until terminated by a sign to diagram 667.2. There is no such sign between no. 9 and St. Mary's Walk. The CEO's photos show that I was parked in this length of street and therefore permitted to do so by virtue of this sign. For this purpose it is irrelevant that I was parked within the scope of a waiting restriction whose presence may not form a part of the authority's consideration. Strangely, in the authority's rejection of my informal representations reference is made to me being parked 'before a sign' which as explained above is totally incorrect. What I would accept is that beyond my car in St. Mary's Walk (situated by the flank wall of no.33 St. Mary's Road) are further footway parking signs. However, these are conflicting because one of these indicates the end of a non-existent 'two-wheel' parking area(at this point the sign o/s no. 9 still has effect) while the other indicates the beginning of a different permitted footway parking permission, with I may add a non-specified sign which is therefore unlawful unless the council have obtained the Secretary of State's authorisation.

In short:
My car was parked within a permitted '4-wheel' footway parking area;
My car was parked in contravention of a waiting restriction which I accept was poor parking on my part but not the contravention in dispute;
The effect of the sign o/s no. 9 is conflicted by a mix of signs o/s 33 St. Mary's Road(albeit situated in St. Mary's Walk), one of which is prima facie unlawful.

In conclusion, the contravention did not occur and the authority has no basis on which to reject these representations. The PCN must therefore be cancelled. Should the authority not be minded to do so, then they must give cogent reasons based upon evidence and not, as in their earlier rejection, simply make statements which are not supported by objective facts.

Yours,

Attachments:
Diagrams 668; 667.2 ( source Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2016);
GSV screenshots of signs o/s no. 9 and 33.

(you'll have to extract and add these yourself pl)

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2016/362/schedule/7/made

pepipooper

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Re: Hillingdon PCN Code 62 parked on footpath, but road signs allow parking
« Reply #9 on: December 19, 2023, 06:13:31 am »
This isn't to do with any resolution as such, their position is impossible with or without one.

OP, the first thing I recommend is that you set out clearly the situation as regards signs.

The authority will be aware that the council have placed a sign to diagram 668 o/s no. 9 St. Mary's Road. The conveys the meaning that on this side of the road a vehicle may park with 4 wheels on the footway. This permission remains in effect until terminated by a sign to diagram 667.2. There is no such sign between no. 9 and St. Mary's Walk. The CEO's photos show that I was parked in this length of street and therefore permitted to do so by virtue of this sign. For this purpose it is irrelevant that I was parked within the scope of a waiting restriction whose presence may not form a part of the authority's consideration. Strangely, in the authority's rejection of my informal representations reference is made to me being parked 'before a sign' which as explained above is totally incorrect. What I would accept is that beyond my car in St. Mary's Walk (situated by the flank wall of no.33 St. Mary's Road) are further footway parking signs. However, these are conflicting because one of these indicates the end of a non-existent 'two-wheel' parking area(at this point the sign o/s no. 9 still has effect) while the other indicates the beginning of a different permitted footway parking permission, with I may add a non-specified sign which is therefore unlawful unless the council have obtained the Secretary of State's authorisation.

In short:
My car was parked within a permitted '4-wheel' footway parking area;
My car was parked in contravention of a waiting restriction which I accept was poor parking on my part but not the contravention in dispute;
The effect of the sign o/s no. 9 is conflicted by a mix of signs o/s 33 St. Mary's Road(albeit situated in St. Mary's Walk), one of which is prima facie unlawful.

In conclusion, the contravention did not occur and the authority has no basis on which to reject these representations. The PCN must therefore be cancelled. Should the authority not be minded to do so, then they must give cogent reasons based upon evidence and not, as in their earlier rejection, simply make statements which are not supported by objective facts.

Yours,

Attachments:
Diagrams 668; 667.2 ( source Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2016);
GSV screenshots of signs o/s no. 9 and 33.

(you'll have to extract and add these yourself pl)

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2016/362/schedule/7/made

How do I submit this challenge? Do I have to wait until I receive a NtO first?

John U.K.

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Re: Hillingdon PCN Code 62 parked on footpath, but road signs allow parking
« Reply #10 on: December 19, 2023, 08:53:08 am »
Quote
How do I submit this challenge? Do I have to wait until I receive a NtO first?


You wait for the NtO, and follow the instructions on it. With the state of the Christmas post and assorted bank holidays keep an eye on the timetable and check the online status to see when NtO sent. Missing responding to NtO can be messy.


Meanwhile, take on board HCA's detailed suggestion and either use it verbatim or work it up into your own draft, posting it here for comment.

pepipooper

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Re: Hillingdon PCN Code 62 parked on footpath, but road signs allow parking
« Reply #11 on: January 12, 2024, 07:24:46 am »
I've received the NtO and have a week left to reply.

Please could you advise if my draft below is okay. The link given to submit representations (https://hillingdonparking.apcoa.co.uk/) is the same as the informal appeal I made previously and there is no option on there to make representations against the NtO specifically - it's looks as if I'm just making another informal challenge to the PCN, is this correct?
Also, should I select one of the options under PCN wrongly/unfairly issued as the reason for my appeal or select 'none of the above'?

Draft response:

The authority will be aware that the council have placed a sign to diagram 668 (from Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2016) at both ends of the road, one outside number 9 St. Mary's Road and another outside number 59 St. Mary’s Road/Hayes Town Chapel. The conveys the meaning that on this side of the road a vehicle may park with 4 wheels on the footway. This permission remains in effect until terminated by a sign to diagram 668.2. There is no such sign between either end of the road (number 9 St. Mary’s Road/number 59 St. Mary’s Road) and St. Mary's Walk. The CEO's photos show that I was parked in this length of street and therefore permitted to do so by virtue of this sign. For this purpose, it is irrelevant that I was parked within the scope of a waiting restriction whose presence may not form a part of the authority's consideration.
Strangely, in the authority's rejection of my informal representations reference is made to me being parked 'before a sign' which as explained above is totally incorrect. What I would accept is that beyond my car in St. Mary's Walk (situated by the flank wall of number 33 St. Mary's Road) are further footway parking signs. However, these are conflicting because one of these indicates the end of a non-existent 'two-wheel' parking area (at this point the sign outside number 9 St. Mary’s Road still has effect) while the other indicates the beginning of a different permitted footway parking permission, which I may add is with a non-specified sign which is therefore unlawful unless the council have obtained the Secretary of State's authorisation.

In short:
My car was parked within a permitted '4-wheel' footway parking area;
My car was parked in contravention of a waiting restriction which I accept was poor parking on my part but not the contravention in dispute;
The effect of the sign outside number 9 St. Mary’s Road is conflicted by a mix of signs outside 33 St. Mary's Road (albeit situated in St. Mary's Walk), one of which is prima facie unlawful.

In conclusion, the contravention did not occur, and the authority has no basis on which to reject these representations. The PCN must therefore be cancelled. Should the authority not be minded to do so, then they must give cogent reasons based upon evidence and not, as in their earlier rejection, simply make statements which are not supported by objective facts.

Yours,

Attachments:
Diagrams 668; 668.2 (source Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2016);
Google street view screenshots of signs outside numbers 9, 59 and 33 St. Mary’s Road.


Should I add the attachments as links to images uploaded somewhere or directly attach the images?

Pastmybest

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Re: Hillingdon PCN Code 62 parked on footpath, but road signs allow parking
« Reply #12 on: January 12, 2024, 07:05:20 pm »
directly attach the images then that if fine for representations

pepipooper

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Re: Hillingdon PCN Code 62 parked on footpath, but road signs allow parking
« Reply #13 on: March 02, 2024, 12:30:40 am »
Hi all

I've received a Rejection of Representations letter to my representations as suggested above. I don't think the rejection really addresses the points in my appeal (just like the previous rejection didn't) and there is not evidence for their points but I would appreciate any advice and whether you think it is worth appealing further and what my chances would be? I have about a week left to pay the reduced charge if it is not worth appealing.

pt1 - https://postimg.cc/fSZTsRpz
pt2 - https://postimg.cc/sMz8JZSD
pt3 - https://postimg.cc/B8RQbgLn

Thanks

Incandescent

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Re: Hillingdon PCN Code 62 parked on footpath, but road signs allow parking
« Reply #14 on: March 02, 2024, 12:51:20 am »
It's a load of tosh. 

They go on about double-yellow lines, and these indeed, do apply to the footway where you parked, but they didn't serve a PCN for that, but for parking off-carriageway. The plain fact is that if they don't want people parking on the footway by the yellow lines, they should issue a PCN for that and not for parking off-carriageway when they allow this on the street concerned.
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