3. Hillingdon Council Car Park PCN
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Hillingdon Council Car Park PCN
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Hi

I imagine this will turn into a longer thread once I have some documents, but here is the initial question:

I returned to find a PCN envelope but no PCN inside it.  I contacted the relevant council who confirmed that a PCN was issued, and gave me the PCN number.  I have logged on to the website and can see the photos, but there is no copy of the PCN available.  It's not possible to tell from the photos whether there was a PCN inside, but it is "one of those areas" so I wouldn't be surprised if someone else took it.

I emailed to request this but they state that they cannot provide a copy of a PCN.  Is this right?  If so it would be a shame for the sake of complete documentation and potential technical errors with the PCN.

Thanks
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Re: Hillingdon Council Car Park PCN
« Reply #1 on: »
Quote
they state that they cannot provide a copy of a PCN.
I'm not sure of the legality of this, but if you get as far as London Tribunals, they must include a copy of the PCN in their evidence pack.
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Re: Hillingdon Council Car Park PCN
« Reply #2 on: »
@dave-o give us the PCN number and number plate please.

Unfortunately if a third party removed the PCN, this does not negate the fact that the PCN was validly served. This is why it is a criminal offence for a third party to take the PCN, but I can't imagine it's a top priority for the police.
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
Re: Hillingdon Council Car Park PCN
« Reply #3 on: »
Quote from: cp8759 on June 19, 2024, 08:01:08 pm
@dave-o give us the PCN number and number plate please.

Unfortunately if a third party removed the PCN, this does not negate the fact that the PCN was validly served. This is why it is a criminal offence for a third party to take the PCN, but I can't imagine it's a top priority for the police.

I know there's no mileage in the PCN removal thing, otherwise everyone would claim it was taken.  I don't expect this to be an appeal point in itself, I'd just really like a copy of the PCN for my appeals...

I will PM you the details, thanks.
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Re: Hillingdon Council Car Park PCN
« Reply #4 on: »
So the allegation is "83 - Parked in a car park without clearly displaying a valid pay & display ticket or voucher or parking clock", here are the council photos:



















Let's start with the facts, why were you late back to the car?
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
Re: Hillingdon Council Car Park PCN
« Reply #5 on: »
No excuses for being late really, although it was only 13 minutes.  This is quite a remote location, and as you can see there are no other cars.  I would have run back if I thought there were likely to be any issues.

As usual, I'm hoping for a technicality.

Thanks
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Re: Hillingdon Council Car Park PCN
« Reply #6 on: »
Quote from: dave-o on June 21, 2024, 09:52:25 am
No excuses for being late really, although it was only 13 minutes.
Even if it's not an excuse, it's useful to know the facts of the case.
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
Re: Hillingdon Council Car Park PCN
« Reply #7 on: »
There's no sign at the entrance with Ts&Cs.  The only Ts&Cs as such are the ones on the meter.  Other than that the only sign is the "have you paid and displayed" one.  Is this sufficient notice?
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Re: Hillingdon Council Car Park PCN
« Reply #8 on: »
I emailed to request this but they state that they cannot provide a copy of a PCN.

Copies please. This is outrageous and has nothing to do with parking per se.

Yours is NOT like the case of someone who might claim to have not received a PCN, this happens after a NTO plonks onto the doormat. You are asking for a copy of the PCN less than 4 days after it was served. You acknowledge it was served - I hope you didn't suggest it wasn't- but this isn't the point. Unless there was a reason for the wording in a PCN, then why bother with it? The wording is there for a purpose and IMO you have every right to ask for a copy, subject to establishing your bona fides in the matter.

Let's see the correspondence pl.
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Re: Hillingdon Council Car Park PCN
« Reply #9 on: »
I didn't suggest it wasn't served and I don't plan to.  I contacted the very next day by phone, along the lines of "was I served one?", and was told I had been served one, and i should email them to ask for a copy (although to be fair he did say it was unlikely).

The email correspondence:

(Me, 18th June a.m.)

Quote
I spoke to one of your colleagues who suggested I email you about this.  When I returned to my car yesterday there was a PCN envelope on it but no PCN inside.  I spoke to your colleague on the phone who was able to give me the PCN number (HNXXXXXX), but when i look at the evidence on the website, a copy of the PCN is not there.  Could I please ask that you either send me a copy of the PCN itself, or add this to the evidence on the website?

Hillingdon Parking Services (18th June p.m.)

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We are in receipt of your email dated 18/6/24.


Unfortunately we are unable to provide a copy of the PCN that was printed out and left on your vehicle yesterday 17/6/24.


The details of the PCN are as follows:


HNXXXXXXXXX

Issued on 17/6/24 at 17:14

Vehicle Registration Number:  XXXXXXX

Location:  Rockingham Recreation Ground Car Park

Issued for Code 83:  No valid P&D ticket

Photographs relating to this PCN can be viewed on our website -  https://hillingdonparking.apcoa.co.uk where you can also challenge the PCN or make payment to close the case.
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Re: Hillingdon Council Car Park PCN
« Reply #10 on: »
What?

So how the hell are you supposed to know from this the deadlines for payment, their duty to consider reps, what a NTO is and when it may be served and on whom etc?

where you can also challenge the PCN or make payment to close the case.

And why would you know, as a simple motorist, what the f*** is a challenge and to whom must it be sent and by when? 'Case', is this criminal?

I'd write back.

You don't need a copy of the PCN but you do need and require the authority to provide details of:

How the penalty may be contested e.g. by whom, timeframe, in what form, how and to whom must this be sent etc;
The authority's duties in this regard;
The rules relating to payment,
What happens if payment is not made;

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Re: Hillingdon Council Car Park PCN
« Reply #11 on: »
Thanks, no harm in asking and seeing what they say, I will do so.
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Re: Hillingdon Council Car Park PCN
« Reply #12 on: »
In writing.
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Re: Hillingdon Council Car Park PCN
« Reply #13 on: »
Quote from: dave-o on June 24, 2024, 01:00:45 pm
There's no sign at the entrance with Ts&Cs.  The only Ts&Cs as such are the ones on the meter.  Other than that the only sign is the "have you paid and displayed" one.  Is this sufficient notice?
Possibly not, does the P&D machine mention the parking places order, and does it say anything about PCNs?
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
Re: Hillingdon Council Car Park PCN
« Reply #14 on: »
Quote from: cp8759 on June 26, 2024, 08:06:37 pm
Quote from: dave-o on June 24, 2024, 01:00:45 pm
There's no sign at the entrance with Ts&Cs.  The only Ts&Cs as such are the ones on the meter.  Other than that the only sign is the "have you paid and displayed" one.  Is this sufficient notice?
Possibly not, does the P&D machine mention the parking places order, and does it say anything about PCNs?

I'll get some pics of the P&D text.  Is there somewhere I can search a database of PPOs?
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