Author Topic: Harrow - Outside Markings  (Read 1594 times)

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Harrow - Outside Markings
« on: »
(n.b. I was not the driver or keeper, so can't take any "credit" for the quality of the parking, nor explain their thinking...!)

This was for a PCN initially served in June 2023.  The NTO did not arrive, so after receiving the CC the keeper waited for the OfR and got the process set back to NTO stage.

Here is the NTO and reps details:








Here is a copy of the PCN that was served on the car.  The keeper doesn't have the original any more and did not take a copy of the reverse.



Here are the CEO pictures taken from the online portal:






Since the incident, the markings have been repainted, and this is how they appear now:




- The driver stated to the keeper that they could not see any markings on the bay when they parked.  The first CEO pic supports that they were heavily worn at the side at which the driver presumably entered the space.  They claim that the vertical line in pic 2 faded out shortly after it goes under the car, and (as can be seen from pic 1) does not meet the horizontal line.  The faint white splodges outside the horizontal line are the remnants of "DISABLED"
- The driver did display a BB and clock as required
- It is not clear why the CEO took a picture of the disabled bay sign as a) the BB was properly displayed and b) the ticket is not for anything to do with disabled bays
- The bays have since been repainted, as per the final pic, which does suggest that Harrow knew they were worn



Thank you for any suggestions

Initial ideas - FOI request to Harrow for details on why the bays were recently repainted?  Would an admission that they were worn help?
« Last Edit: October 21, 2024, 11:23:35 am by dave-o »

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Re: Harrow - Outside Markings
« Reply #1 on: »
NTO posted 10 Oct, therefore presumed served 14th. Last day of 28-day reps period is therefore 10 Nov.

OP, you posted 'I was not the driver or keeper' which means everything that's required to be done procedurally must be done by someone else.

The period between initial PCN and current NTO is 16 months. This is excessive IMO and means that the keeper needs to discover what was sent and when. Potentially, this could be resolved procedurally.

Date first NTO issued - will be on the charge certificate;
Date TEC ordered the CC and NTO cancelled(the revocation order) - is on the order which the keeper received from TEC.


Re: Harrow - Outside Markings
« Reply #2 on: »
OP, you posted 'I was not the driver or keeper' which means everything that's required to be done procedurally must be done by someone else.

It's not the first time that the keeper has asked me to help them so we are both clear on procedure and will submit things correctly.

Date first NTO issued - will be on the charge certificate;

They were waiting for ages after the CC to receive the OfR.  I have the CC here:




Date TEC ordered the CC and NTO cancelled(the revocation order) - is on the order which the keeper received from TEC.

The OfR?  I don't have a copy of this but can get one if it's important.

Re: Harrow - Outside Markings
« Reply #3 on: »
I think this is the document you asked for?


Re: Harrow - Outside Markings
« Reply #4 on: »
The Order for Recovery is the notice which includes the witness statement form which your friend submitted in time. 21 days are permitted and therefore working back from the date of submission- which is given in the order as 26 Sept.-this gives a date of service of the Order for Recovery as no earlier than 5 Sept. 2024.

What happened between 26 Sept. 2023 and 12 months later, 5 Sept. 2024, a prolonged exchange of correspondence or radio silence? Only the keeper knows.

And pl provide the full house of dates i.e. the date of issue of the OfR.

 

Re: Harrow - Outside Markings
« Reply #5 on: »

What happened between 26 Sept. 2023 and 12 months later, 5 Sept. 2024, a prolonged exchange of correspondence or radio silence? Only the keeper knows.


We have been in regular contact throughout, so I am fully up to date on the details.

During the 12 months, he was waiting for an OfR and phoning TEC regularly to see if it had progressed.  It really was just a hell of a wait, I can assure you there's nothing I'm not telling you.

I can probably get a copy of the OfR if you really need it?

Just to check that you saw I posted the revocation order above?

Re: Harrow - Outside Markings
« Reply #6 on: »
As requested, the OfR



Re: Harrow - Outside Markings
« Reply #7 on: »
I would make representations on the grounds of Procedural Impropriety in addition to any related to the contravention itself.

Procedural Impropriety
In this case the PCN was issued on 14 June, the NTO on 3 Aug, and the Charge Certificate on 11 Sept. All in the year 2023.

The Order for Recovery was issued in September 2024, 12 months after the CC.

The council are under a public law duty to act fairly and reasonably and in addition the Secretary of State's statutory guidance states:

Enforcement authorities should make sure that their processes for recovering outstanding penalties and handling challenges, representations and appeals are efficient, effective and impartial.

There is nothing fair or efficient about delaying the mandatory procedure by 12 months. The authority are now challenging my memory and that of the driver to recollect events that happened in June 2023, 16 months ago. This is unfair and prejudices my ability to submit informed representations.

I submit that these actions constitute a procedural impropriety and therefore the PCN must be cancelled.

Should the authority reject these representations then it is obliged to give detailed reasons i.e. a 'we do not agree' would be insufficient and itself constitute a procedural impropriety. In this regard, I refer the authority to the SoS's guidance which states:

The authority should give the owner clear and full reasons for its decision on a representation, in addition to the minimum required information.

Failure to explain such a decision may be seen as maladministration.

Re: Harrow - Outside Markings
« Reply #8 on: »
Thank you, I shall do.

What do you think in regards to the heavily worn markings, also the suggestion of a FOI to see when and why the markings were repainted?  If the FOI states "repainted in July 2023 as markings were heavily worn" (or somesuch) this would seem to support a claim that the markings were not sufficient at the time?

Or is the procedural impropriety a sure fire winner on its own?

Re: Harrow - Outside Markings
« Reply #9 on: »
We're going to submit your procedural impropriety text on its own for now, as the formal council appeal.  It seems like remembering the worn markings could undermine the idea that it's been so long it's not fair to expect someone to remember the contravention.

I have also submitted a FOI about when and why the markings were repainted.  If this gives any ammo then we could add it to the NPAS appeal.

If they do mess us around at formal, do you think there is any likelihood in asking the adjudicator for costs?  The poor guy was ringing TEC for a year!

Thank you for your help.
« Last Edit: October 24, 2024, 01:43:49 pm by dave-o »

Re: Harrow - Outside Markings
« Reply #10 on: »
Harrow NOR.  Obviously we will be taking it to adjudication.  Anything else to add?  Also we would like to see about costs as it's ridiculous keeping a vulnerable person hanging on for more than a year.  I guess this is done after a win at adjudication?




I'm a bit perplexed by paragraph 4; "If you believed....".  Aside from the incredibly patronising tone, he has only had the opportunity to make an informal representation, so what is this "other chance"?  Am I missing something or is this just council patronising nonsense?
« Last Edit: November 18, 2024, 11:31:53 am by dave-o »

Re: Harrow - Outside Markings
« Reply #11 on: »
I would have mentioned the markings and repainting so as they carried forward to the appeal but you can still introduce them.

No brainer to register the appeal and opt for a telephone hearing.

Harrow may not contest this especially as it's the lowest possible penalty in London at £60.

Re: Harrow - Outside Markings
« Reply #12 on: »
I would have mentioned the markings and repainting so as they carried forward to the appeal but you can still introduce them.


I did, although I haven't received the FOI details yet about when and why the markings were repainted.  Even assuming maximum response times, I will have these in time for the adjudicator appeal.

Re: Harrow - Outside Markings
« Reply #13 on: »
FOI is overkill for this - it's obvious they've been repainted and an adjudicator will be happy with views from Google Maps.

Re: Harrow - Outside Markings
« Reply #14 on: »
If you must FoI, and I think you should, then ask this:

Please provide a copy of the committee report (and published decision) which was submitted to the council pursuant to their obligation under s87 Traffic Management Act 2004 for the purpose of having regard to the Secretary of State's (who is the 'national authority' for these purposes)updated Statutory Guidance issued in October 2022.