Author Topic: Harrow Council - PCN, parking within PPA "HH", West Street HA1  (Read 1671 times)

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Hello,

I received a parking ticket from Harrow Council on 1 June.

Parking ticket: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1QC1S6rpYpJUGIaqs-QqYKwoxuT_LDeMX/view

I had inadvertently parked with a parking permit area, which I only worked this out after looking online and finding this useful thread: http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=144725.

I appealed on the Harrow Council website with the following letter: https://drive.google.com/file/d/12MpCi3RvqnZeiHxtqs_TYAIh4tzTrN8s/view

And today (although dated a week ago!) received their reply letter declining this.
Page 1: https://drive.google.com/file/d/12465sY9cUwcSYaH_odDhq2AOS8I38-Pc/view
Page 2: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1iT1OTui6UKSBUNfwDZWedHVhQzzWVv7f/view

This means I now have to decide whether to pay the reduced fine within 7 days, or formally challenge this. I'm not really sure what the latter means in practice and what it would involve??!

I'd like some guidance on whether I have a case or not, and if so what I should do?

Thank you!

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Re: Harrow Council - PCN, parking within PPA "HH", West Street HA1
« Reply #1 on: »
Ok, so you've read a previous thread on this zone on the Pepipoo forum. Can you remember what route you took to park where you did ?
If you turn into West Street from the A312 Bessborough Road there are two prominent parking signs.
https://goo.gl/maps/idkJgJ7LHoUtDNhy9
Also turning in from A4005 London Road
https://goo.gl/maps/hEaK9jxGGJVdCj6f7
Also there are signs once you're in the zone at marked parking bays, but not, I think, at places where there are no bays, or on single yellow lines, so you could be fooled.
https://goo.gl/maps/Jy79sF9aHKvKi3wr8
Whether the lack of repeaters is a win at London Tribunals is a moot point. Certainly a win is not guaranteed.

The other aspect which can win at adjudication is a fatal error in the PCN itself. So please post up the back of the PCN so an assessment can be made. The front of the PCN looks OK. The text on the back probably is OK, but you never can tell !
« Last Edit: August 05, 2023, 06:24:03 pm by cp8759 »

Re: Harrow Council - PCN, parking within PPA "HH", West Street HA1
« Reply #2 on: »
Thanks for your reply.

The route taken into the zone was from here, turning right: https://www.google.com/maps/@51.5737255,-0.336411,3a,75y,173.63h,85.97t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sOMhV-QwD4gnUwF2Pb9xzDA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?authuser=0&entry=ttu

There is one sign immediately on the right of the road next to the zebra crossing. The sign on the left of the road cannot be seen as it's opposite the junction and facing for traffic arriving from the left.

Given the junction/crossing and just one side on the right-side of road at this point, I didn't notice I was entering the zone!

And yes -- on West Street where I parked, there were no signs until you got ~80m or so further down the down (which I hadn't) where there is a sign.

Re: Harrow Council - PCN, parking within PPA "HH", West Street HA1
« Reply #3 on: »
Well, you could appeal at London Tribunals on poor signage, as turning right as you did, there is only one sign visible and that is on the right out of your line of site for driving carefully. It could also be obscured by a high-sided vehicle.

The down side is you would have to risk the full PCN penalty, the discount option is lost at adjudication. So see what the others say, but don't miss any deadlines.

Re: Harrow Council - PCN, parking within PPA "HH", West Street HA1
« Reply #4 on: »
Well the starting point is that, as long as you challenge the Notice to Owner within 14 days, the council will re-offer the discount (to discourage you from appealing to the tribunal), so you might as well carry on.

However I'm intrigued by this permit:



What can you tell us about it? Does it have any terms and conditions? surely if you displayed it you must have thought it was valid?
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

Re: Harrow Council - PCN, parking within PPA "HH", West Street HA1
« Reply #5 on: »
Ah, that permit is a red herring. It was used earlier in the week when I'd been working at Harrow School, and is for their staff parking. I just hadn't removed it from the dashboard yet (I'd been on-site on and off at the school for several days). It certainly has no validity on public roads.

My parking on West Street was entirely in good faith on the basis I hadn't seen the zone entry signs (see junction Street View in previous post), and I could see no reason not to park on West Road (no signs in sight/no signs at top of road/no lines).

--

Thank you for the information on the Notice To Owner. The council have again offered the reduced rate for 14 days in their letter rejecting my online appeal. If they will do the same again after I challenge that I'll go ahead. Would that involve just submitting a similar letter to my previous one?

Re: Harrow Council - PCN, parking within PPA "HH", West Street HA1
« Reply #6 on: »
Would that involve just submitting a similar letter to my previous one?
Well yes, but we'll help you draft something more detailed, don't try doing this without our help.
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
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Re: Harrow Council - PCN, parking within PPA "HH", West Street HA1
« Reply #7 on: »
Ok. Thank you in advance  :)

I will reply back here with images when the notice arrives in the post

Re: Harrow Council - PCN, parking within PPA "HH", West Street HA1
« Reply #8 on: »
Hello again,

I've now received the Notice to Owner form in the post. Images below:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1y4ncvE2L7Yk8txxWNx99yH3wXExjP2GY/view Page 1
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1lbNrBIvk-pikrBeUSr6P5EPZKIWOBitc/view Page 2
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1_aGxYesSFKQ1t4_30Fgt_72ul0ZqFjbo/view Page 3
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1tFeTJQtyNdxtp7cHgnDUH7ZZxyaVXGs2/view Page 4

I'd appreciate some guidance please in writing the response to this?

Thank you so much in advance

To be honest I would make the same representation again, without mentioning the specific route you took. Every adjudicator I've ever taken this zone to has said that the size of the zone and the adequacy of the signage are ridiculous.
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

Re: Harrow Council - PCN, parking within PPA "HH", West Street HA1
« Reply #10 on: »
Ok, thanks. The form provided has a half-page set of lines for hand writing. Would it be acceptable to print my representation and attach it or is it better to write it into the form?

How does this draft look? A shorter version of my original.

--

I challenge liability for PCN HR51148352 due to a lack of zone repeater signs. At first I had no idea why I received a PCN, but having looked into matters online I now understand I was parked within the Harrow on the Hill Permit Parking Area.

While I understand there is a Permit Parking Area sign at the junction of Grove Hill and Peterborough Road where I entered the zone, the zone is quite large and I did not pass any repeater signs within the zone. I travelled a quarter of a kilometre from the entrance of the zone and parked on a much smaller road with considerably less traffic. I observed my surroundings and did not see any indication of any parking restrictions (either at the top of West Road, or along the road side, or in the form of yellow lines). There were other cars parked on the same road not exhibiting permits, suggesting that, at the time of parking, I was not alone in my assumption that this was a valid street on which to park. I have photos demonstrating that there is no signage within sight of my parked car.

A Permit Parking Area is different to a Controlled Parking Zone because, unlike a CPZ, the layout of a PPA does not include any bays or markings to alert a motorist to the restrictions. While previous tribunal decisions are not binding they can be persuasive and I note the significant parallels with Shetal Patel vs London Borough of Harrow (PCN HR51100560, Case 2220650316, 27 Oct 2022) and also Stephanie Martin v Knowsley Metropolitan Borough Council (KI00006-1905, 21 June 2019), where in both cases the adjudicator found that in a large PPA covering several streets, the zone entrance signs alone are not adequate to support the restriction.


I therefore contest that the alleged contravention did not occur.

Re: Harrow Council - PCN, parking within PPA "HH", West Street HA1
« Reply #11 on: »
Yes that's fine. Remember to grab a screenshot of the confirmation screen.
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

Re: Harrow Council - PCN, parking within PPA "HH", West Street HA1
« Reply #12 on: »
Sorry, I'm not sure I understand what you mean? I initially appealed online and got the rejection (see initial post in this thread).

This 'Notice to Owner' paper form doesn't seem to have an option for an online appeal, only a paper form to be returned to Harrow Council, PO Box 951, Civic Centre, Harrow, HA1 2FY.

This is the paperwork I've received this week:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1y4ncvE2L7Yk8txxWNx99yH3wXExjP2GY/view Page 1
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1lbNrBIvk-pikrBeUSr6P5EPZKIWOBitc/view Page 2
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1_aGxYesSFKQ1t4_30Fgt_72ul0ZqFjbo/view Page 3
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1tFeTJQtyNdxtp7cHgnDUH7ZZxyaVXGs2/view Page 4

Re: Harrow Council - PCN, parking within PPA "HH", West Street HA1
« Reply #13 on: »
This 'Notice to Owner' paper form doesn't seem to have an option for an online appeal, only a paper form to be returned to Harrow Council, PO Box 951, Civic Centre, Harrow, HA1 2FY.
I beg to differ:

I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

Re: Harrow Council - PCN, parking within PPA "HH", West Street HA1
« Reply #14 on: »
It's almost like you've done this before!

Sorry, I missed that!! Thank you  :)