3. Harrow Council code 24 poor markings
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Re: Harrow Council code 24 poor markings
« Reply #30 on: »
Quote from: cp8759 on August 27, 2023, 07:02:40 pm
Quote from: Pastmybest on August 18, 2023, 11:14:37 am
you were parked on the Broadway not Uxbridge rd
The traffic order described it as "The service road on the south side of Uxbridge Road, fronted by Nos. 339 to 523 Uxbridge Road", to borrow a phrase from Mr Teper, is that not good enough?

The schedule then says that there is a maximum of 15 spaces, so if the council then goes and paints 15 parking spaces in that parking place, it's hard to say they've done anything wrong as far as creating the bays & the restrictions.

The problem for the council is that the PCN doesn't say "The service road on the south side of Uxbridge Road", it just says "Uxbridge Road", so the contravention alleged on the face of the PCN did not occur.

Aside from that, the strongest point is likely to be that the council won't put in adequate evidence that it has properly communicated the requirement to park within an individual space, this is very much dependant on this photo not being included in any representations (I have seen cases before where the best photos of the signage are those submitted by the motorist, we really want to avoid that).

Have you already sent the representations? It's not the end of the world if you have, but if not we can refine them a little. There is no 1000 character limit as you can just put the representation in a PDF and upload it as an attachment.
Hi CP, yes representation has gone and I edited it to fit the character limit - that's the copy I pasted in a previous message on this thread and focuses on the primary defence so it's now over to Harrow to can it or reject - and if they reject presumably I can appeal and then put in the supplementary defences if Harrow's rejection is compelling? I can't see how this is going to be worth their while to pursue but stranger things have happened.
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Re: Harrow Council code 24 poor markings
« Reply #31 on: »
Let us know when you get a response from Harrow, if they reject one of us will represent you.
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
Re: Harrow Council code 24 poor markings
« Reply #32 on: »
Quote from: cp8759 on August 28, 2023, 01:39:34 pm
Let us know when you get a response from Harrow, if they reject one of us will represent you.

There's a response:
https://ibb.co/5RXwYx6
https://ibb.co/FgbzCP9

They don't seem to be having any of it.
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Re: Harrow Council code 24 poor markings
« Reply #33 on: »
Obviously just wait for the notice to owner. The council is just hoping you'll give up and pay, they know that most people mostly give us as soon as they get the first rejection.
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
Re: Harrow Council code 24 poor markings
« Reply #34 on: »
Notice to Owner will go to the hire/lease company assuming their name is on the V5c
You need to contact them, pre warn them and ask that they challenge using the Hire Company ground and give your name and address (ensure they have the correct one)
Do it in writing.
This should prevent them simply paying or doing something silly like just forwarding the NTO to you.
If they use that gound, it should see their NTO cancelled and a new one issued to you.
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Re: Harrow Council code 24 poor markings
« Reply #35 on: »
I've written to the lease company and they've confirmed that they've passed on my details to Harrow Council so waiting for NTO.
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Re: Harrow Council code 24 poor markings
« Reply #36 on: »
Quote from: crxvtec on October 04, 2023, 06:09:49 pm
I've written to the lease company and they've confirmed that they've passed on my details to Harrow Council so waiting for NTO.
Does that mean they have received an NTO and challenged on hire ground, giving your details
Or just that they've sent a random letter which will be ignored?
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Re: Harrow Council code 24 poor markings
« Reply #37 on: »
Sorry, I am confused. What is the "hire ground"?
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Re: Harrow Council code 24 poor markings
« Reply #38 on: »
Quote from: crxvtec on October 05, 2023, 01:21:11 am
Sorry, I am confused. What is the "hire ground"?
One of the statutory grounds that can be used to challenge an NTO
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Re: Harrow Council code 24 poor markings
« Reply #39 on: »
Quote from: crxvtec on October 05, 2023, 01:21:11 am
Sorry, I am confused. What is the "hire ground"?
A hire company can challenge a notice to owner on the basis that they're a hire company and the vehicle was on hire. The council will accept this, cancel the notice to owner, and then issue another one to the person who had hired the vehicle. Otherwise companies like Hertz or Europcar would go bust due to the millions of pounds in PCNs they'd have to pay.
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
Re: Harrow Council code 24 poor markings
« Reply #40 on: »
Quote from: DancingDad on October 05, 2023, 09:17:05 am
Quote from: crxvtec on October 05, 2023, 01:21:11 am
Sorry, I am confused. What is the "hire ground"?
One of the statutory grounds that can be used to challenge an NTO
The hire company said "I can confirm that we have provided your companies details to the fine issuer, they should reissue the fine to your companies address for you to be able to action this further."
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Re: Harrow Council code 24 poor markings
« Reply #41 on: »
So nothing for ages, then this came through.
https://ibb.co/YfmWHvB

I don't remember seeing the NTO.
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Re: Harrow Council code 24 poor markings
« Reply #42 on: »
Quote
So nothing for ages, then this came through.

Are you able to access any sort of case history on Harrow's website?

For some reason you've redacted the reg.mark?

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Re: Harrow Council code 24 poor markings
« Reply #43 on: »
Hi John, I don't see any history on the Harrow Council website but I'm still able to send them a note.

I'm thinking to send the following:

I am in receipt of a charge notice dated 17/6/2024, wherein it states that a Notice to Owner (NTO) was issued on 9/11/2023. I have received no such document therefore I have not been able to make formal representations. I wish to make a formal representation as indicated by correspondence sent previously. Kindly confirm how I may do this. Thank you.
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Re: Harrow Council code 24 poor markings
« Reply #44 on: »
@crxvtec No! Do not contact the council!

Contacting the council will simply delay things, you need to follow the instructions here: https://www.ftla.uk/announcements/charge-certificate-cases-under-the-traffic-management-act-2004-no-original-pcn/
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
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