Author Topic: Harrow, code 33E Used a bus gate Camrose Ave  (Read 4675 times)

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Harrow, code 33E Used a bus gate Camrose Ave
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I drove through the bus gates on Camrose Ave in Harrow since I have never been there and the parked cars have made me focus on them instead of the signage itself so that when I realised it was to late. Also today was clear but just too dark for me to actually see the bus gate text printed on ground, a car behind me also went through so I suppose this would not be uncommon.

Please could anyone inform if I have any grounds to challange this?

PCN images

https://imgpile.com/p/BEh5jp2#2TPzHfB
« Last Edit: November 22, 2025, 05:19:00 pm by John U.K. »

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Re: Harrow, code 33E Used a bus gate Camrose Ave
« Reply #1 on: »

Re: Harrow, code 33E Used a bus gate Camrose Ave
« Reply #2 on: »
CCTV footage:
https://imgpile.com/p/eTuJDnq#MfNfHAe
Here, I think : -
https://maps.app.goo.gl/2Br6fd5SmUrhEFkZ8
Signage seems correct
Advance warning of a width limit, but nothing about a bus gate: -
https://maps.app.goo.gl/hdBDPpTxoAgc8PLu5

If you decide to fight it, be aware that the council will refuse your reps, so you'd have to take them to London Tribunals with the full PCN in play. London councils make millions from PCN penalties by refusing all reps, because they know that most people (>95%), then just cough up. Its a nice little earner for them and cheap to operate too.
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Re: Harrow, code 33E Used a bus gate Camrose Ave
« Reply #3 on: »
1. The alleged contravention is not proved because the video does not show any alleged upright signage passed.

2. I make this collateral challenge against the validity of the PCN as it is missing mandatory information as provided at Para. 4 (8 ) (v) of

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukla/2003/3/section/4/enacted

(v)that, if the penalty charge is not paid before the end of the 28 day period, an increased charge may be payable.                                       
               
Clearly, this refers to Para. 4 (8 ) (iii):

(iii)that the penalty charge must be paid before the end of the period of 28 days beginning with the date of the notice;

Therefore, it follows that the statement: If you fail to pay the Penalty Charge or make  representations before the end of a period of 28 days beginning with the date of service of this notice an increased charge of £240 may be payable. adds to the lack of clarity by its omission. Even on its own, whether the required information was included or not, it is also arguable that it conflates the two periods using the word "or" which many would view as being conjunctive. Furthermore, even if the statement were to be interpreted disjunctively, there is still no clarity due to the missing information.

Therefore. please cancel.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2025, 11:09:19 am by Hippocrates »
IF YOU RECEIVE A MOVING TRAFFIC PCN PLEASE READ THIS BEFORE MAKING A REPRESENTATION:

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/moving-traffic-pcns-missing-mandatory-information-the-london-local-authorities-a/msg102639/#msg102639


How do we get more people to fight their PCNs?

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/how-do-we-get-more-people-to-fight-their-pcns/msg41917/#msg41917

If you do not even make a challenge, you will surely join "The Mugged Club".

I am not omniscient. cp8759 and mrmustard are true geniuses. I know my place in the hierarchy of The Three Musketeers. 😊 "The Clinician", "The Gentleman" and "The Showman"

My e mail address for councils:

J.BOND007@H.M.S.S.c/oVAUXHALLBRIDGE/LICENSEDTOEXPOSE.SCAMS.CO.UK

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Re: Harrow, code 33E Used a bus gate Camrose Ave
« Reply #4 on: »
1. The alleged contravention is not proved because the video does not show any alleged upright signage passed.

2. I make this collateral challenge against the validity of the PCN as it is missing mandatory information as provided at Para. 4 (8 ) (v) of

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukla/2003/3/section/4/enacted

(v)that, if the penalty charge is not paid before the end of the 28 day period, an increased charge may be payable.                                       
               
Clearly, this refers to Para. 4 (8 ) (iii):

(iii)that the penalty charge must be paid before the end of the period of 28 days beginning with the date of the notice;

Therefore, it follows that the statement: If you fail to pay the Penalty Charge or make  representations before the end of a period of 28 days beginning with the date of service of this notice an increased charge of £240 may be payable. adds to the lack of clarity by its omission. Even on its own, whether the required information was included or not, it is also arguable that it conflates the two periods using the word "or" which many would view as being conjunctive. Furthermore, even if the statement were to be interpreted disjunctively, there is still no clarity due to the missing information.

Therefore. please cancel.

Great appreciations for your help!

Also I have got a question (might indeed be a silly one). I am not quite sure about which option to select when submitting the challenge, should it be 'moving contravention (CCTV)' or 'bus lane contravention (CCTV)'?
« Last Edit: October 18, 2025, 11:11:57 pm by satsuki726 »

Re: Harrow, code 33E Used a bus gate Camrose Ave
« Reply #5 on: »
CCTV footage:
https://imgpile.com/p/eTuJDnq#MfNfHAe
Here, I think : -
https://maps.app.goo.gl/2Br6fd5SmUrhEFkZ8
Signage seems correct
Advance warning of a width limit, but nothing about a bus gate: -
https://maps.app.goo.gl/hdBDPpTxoAgc8PLu5

If you decide to fight it, be aware that the council will refuse your reps, so you'd have to take them to London Tribunals with the full PCN in play. London councils make millions from PCN penalties by refusing all reps, because they know that most people (>95%), then just cough up. Its a nice little earner for them and cheap to operate too.

Thanks a lot! For the hearing part would it be a telephone one? Also would I still have a chance to take it to court if that was also rejected?

Just wondering what is your opinion on whether those grounds are sufficient to reject this PCN.

Many thanks indeed!

Re: Harrow, code 33E Used a bus gate Camrose Ave
« Reply #6 on: »
Quote
Also would I still have a chance to take it to court if that was also rejected?

The adjudicators are the final part of the process. Why ? Because government decided in 1990 that the full panoply of civil courts in a decrminalised parking enforcement process was disproportionate to the levels of penalties demanded which were regarded at the time as fairly trivial.  And to be fair, they still are outside London, but in London are now seriously disproportionate to the actual offences, being well over double the rest of England and Wales. In addition, this process avoids any possibility of a CCJ

Having said the above, if you disagree with an adjudicator's decision, you can request a review, which may or may not be granted. Finally you can request a judicial review, a very costly thing to undertake, and, if you lose you must pay the other party's costs. So my advice is forget this, and accept that the process stops at the adjudicator's decision.

As for my opinion on whether your case is strong, depends.
Item 1 can be refuted by the council by providing evidence to the adjudicators that signs were in position and show photographs and a witness statement.  An adjudication is a civil venue and the test of evidence is "on the balance of probabilities" It's much stronger to show in your appela statement that signs are not present if they aren't.

Item 2 is what we call a "collateral" argument, not related to the contravention itself, which has force by showing that the council have failed in their statutory duty to follow the regulations that they are obliged in law to do. This has succeeded in the past, but for a full explanation, you'd be better hearing from Hippocrates himself.
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Re: Harrow, code 33E Used a bus gate Camrose Ave
« Reply #7 on: »

As for my opinion on whether your case is strong, depends.


Thanks a lot for your explanation

Re: Harrow, code 33E Used a bus gate Camrose Ave
« Reply #8 on: »
@satsuki726 My view is that the arguments against PCNs at Camrose Avenue are strong. But you need to understand that you are taking a risk as logic and legal argument may not prevail.

I suggest the representations below (which are not specific to your case and could be used by anyone who receives a PCN on Camrose Avenue).

While point 1 may seem abstruse, it's a bit like a "poison pill" which companies put in place to protect against takeovers. Most people, adjudicators included, like a simple life. They are on a treadmill of cases and have a fixed time allocation for each one. They prefer to avoid issues which are challenging. This is especially true if allowing an appeal on those grounds would lead to a demand from the council for a review.

In this case, allowing an appeal on ground 1 would amount to finding that the TMO, although legally valid (because, by legislation, that follows automatically if it hasn't been challenged within 6 weeks of its being made) was unenforceable. That would raise the question of whether all the PCNs issued since 2007 would have been wrongful and needed to be refunded.

While Harrow might just sit out a few losses, if lots of appeals went against them on these grounds or the political heat rose, Harrow would eventually seek judicial review. This is the last thing which the Environment and Traffic Adjudicators want. They have a budget and have to bear the costs of defending themselves in judicial reviews. The appellant against the PCN is named as a third party in the judicial review but usually does not appear: the case is between the council and the adjudicators as a public body.

The consequence is that adjudicators inevitably shy away from considering tough issues, especially if they may lead to a finding that the TMO is unenforceable. But they're obliged to be fair and they are trained lawyers. So they prefer to allow an appeal on another, less controversial, ground. The council is happy with this as it, too, much prefers the status quo.

By far the best outcome for both the adjudicators and the council is if the adjudicator can allow the appeal on grounds which do not set a precedent for other cases. This applies if the appellant appears at the hearing and the adjudicator can then say:
Quote
Mr X appeared before me and said ... I found him a credible witness and find, as a matter of fact, that ...  I therefore allow the appeal.
Such findings of fact cannot be overturned except in extreme cases.

I would therefore advise you, if at all possible, to add your own final grounds of appeal. This should be something which happened to you which you argue means that they should allow your appeal. Don't worry if it seems a bit feeble. It's a get-out which enables them to allow the appeal without setting a precedent.



Representations against PCN no. XXXXX for Contravention 33E on Camrose Avenue

The PCN alleges contravention 33E - USING A ROUTE RESTRICTED TO CERTAIN VEHICLES BUSES CYCLES AND TAXIS ONLY.

I reject this allegation. No contravention occurred for the following reasons:

1. The Harrow (Bus Priority) Traffic Order 2016, which supposedly underlies the allegation, does not, in fact, restrict traffic using the inside lane between the traffic island and the footway to buses, cycles and taxis only. Instead the restrictions which it defines apply in each direction between the traffic island and the central median strip. This is because the Council made a mistake in 1999 when consolidating bus restrictions into a single TMO.

The Harrow (Prescribed Routes) (No. 2) Traffic Order 1976 was the original TMO for Camrose Avenue. It defined both the width restriction and the bus-only restriction (as they then were). The latter applied:
Quote
on the south-eastern side of the north-easternmost island site [and] on the north-west side of the south-westernmost island site

In 1999 Harrow consolidated the various individual TMOs into two TMOs, one for width restrictions and one for bus-priority restrictions.

The Harrow (Prescribed Route) (Width Restriction) Traffic Order 1999 defined "prohibited lengths" between "the eastern island" and "the southern kerb-line" and between the "western island" and the "northern kerb-line". All traffic was banned here unless permitted under another TMO.

The Harrow (Bus Priority) Traffic Order 1999 defined the areas of road to which bus-restrictions applied as:
Quote
Westbound: the carriageway to the south of the southern traffic island immediately to the west of its junction with Dale Avenue;
Eastbound: the carriageway to the north of the northern traffic island immediately to the west of its junction with Dale Avenue.

Thus the 1999 consolidated orders transformed the north-eastern traffic island into "the eastern traffic island" in the width-restriction order but "the southern traffic island" in the bus-priority order. Likewise, the orders transformed the south-western traffic island into "the western traffic island" in the width-restriction order but "the northern traffic island" in the bus-priority order. The mistakes in the bus-priority order have been repeated in subsequent TMOs up to and including the current ones.

Inspection of a plan of the site shows that the entire south-western traffic island (which splits eastbound traffic) lies to the south of the entire north-eastern traffic island (which splits westbound traffic). There is only one possible interpretation of "southern traffic island" and it is what the 1976 TMO referred to as "the south-westernmost island site". No amount of creative interpretation can turn "southern" into "western" or "northern". The bus-priority TMOs contain mistakes in their compass-points. The consequences must be allowed to play out.

The TMOs are local legislation. They define the restrictions which apply. The signage is placed to show the effect of the TMOs. The presence of signage purportedly restricting the lanes between the traffic islands and the footway to buses, cycles and taxis does not create such a restriction. Nor does the placing of signage assist the courts in interpreting what the TMO means. The TMOs themselves do that.


2. The Council has failed to provide adequate information about the restrictions which it imposes. Regulation 18 of The Local Authorities' Traffic Orders (Procedure) (England and Wales) Regulations 1996 (LATOR) requires the placing of such traffic signs as the Council
Quote
consider requisite for securing that adequate information as to the effect of the order is made available to persons using the road

In R (Oxfordshire CC) v The Bus Lane Adjudicator [2010] EWHC 894 (Admin), Beatson J found:
Quote
65. The Defendant's submission that the fact that signs are prescribed or authorised does not mean they are sufficient for securing adequate information as to the effect of an order is made available to road users is clearly correct. If the signs do not in fact provide adequate information no offence is committed; see James v Cavey [1967] 2 QB 676.

In James v Cavey, Winn LJ wrote (Ashworth and Widgery JJ concurring):
Quote
The short answer in my view which requires that this appeal should be allowed is that the local authority here did not take such steps as they were required to take under that regulation. They did not take steps which clearly could have been taken and which clearly would have been practicable to cause adequate information to be given to persons using the road by the signs which they erected. ...

This paragraph was quoted with approval by Burnton LJ at paragraph 36 of the judgment in R (Neil Herron et al) v The Parking Adjudicator [2011] EWCA Civ 905 (Aikens LJ and Sir David Keene concurring). It remains current jurisprudence binding on the High Court as well as on tribunals and adjudicators.

The assessment of the adequacy of the signage therefore covers not only signs which were present but also signs which could have been placed but which had not.

The first signage of a bus restriction which motorists see are the blue roundels (diagram 953) at the restrictions. Long before this, there are notices of the width restriction ahead, including on side roads warning of the width restriction if motorists turn towards the restriction. Those advance notice signs show one of the effects of the width-restriction TMO: the width-restriction which applies to the outer lane at the restriction.

But the width-restriction TMO actually applies restrictions to both lanes westbound and both lanes eastbound. In the inside lane, it allows vehicles which are permitted by other TMOs. The Council asserts that the bus-priority TMO allows buses, cycles and taxis in the inside lanes. It follows that, as far as the Council is concerned, the effects of the width-priority TMO include permitting buses, cycles and taxis to avoid the width restriction in the outer lane. Yet the Council has chosen not to show these as effects of the width-restriction TMO. This means, for instance, that drivers of vehicles with 8 or more seats for passengers (the definition of "bus"), such as those used by schools and care homes, are not told that they can bypass the width restriction in the outer lane.

If the full effects of the width-restriction TMO were shown in advance, motorists who are not driving buses would be aware that a bus restriction lay ahead in the inside lane while a 2m width restriction applied to the outer lane (such a sign has only been prescribed since 2016; before then, special permission would have been required).

Motorists would also be aware of the bus restriction ahead if signs to diagram 877 were placed 20m before the restrictions. This sign, which shows that the inside lane turns into a bus lane at the junction ahead, has been available since 1975.

Since 2016, more explicit "lane gain" signs have also been available under Schedule 12 of TSRGD 2016. These can be configured to show that a single lane splits into two lanes ahead and the restrictions which apply to each: in this instance, that the inside lane is for buses, cycles and taxis, while the outer lane has a 2.0m width restriction. These signs can also show where turns can be made into side roads.

In an important report into the bus gate on John Dobson Street, Newcastle, the Chief Adjudicator observed:
Quote
5.17. ... Buses can reasonably be anticipated on a bus route, in both directions, and in bus lanes. There will inevitably be frequent times when a driver is following a bus, which is also likely to stop at a bus stop. Therefore, the presence of buses must be factored in to sign design and engineering.
When bus lanes start, there is a dashed white line (diagram 1010) 250 or 300mm wide diagonally across the lane which tells motorists that the lane is about to become a bus lane. This isn't present for bus gates, so upright signs such as diagram 877 are vital.

As it is, there is no advance signage on Camrose Avenue of the bus restriction. The first indication motorists see are the blue roundels to diagram 953. These are not advance notice signs: they are regulatory signs which must be placed at the restriction. Those on Camrose Avenue are 600mm diameter. Appendix A to Chapter 3 of the Traffic Signs Manual specifies that, where the 85th percentile speed of private cars using the road is between 21 and 30 mph, this sign should be 750mm in diameter. As the Appendix notes:
Quote
It should be borne in mind that smaller signs are likely to be seen later, and do not become legible until drivers are closer to them, with less time to react.


3. The Council asserts that the restriction is correctly and clearly signed and can be seen at any time of the day. By default, councils are entitled to the Presumption of Regularity. This holds that councils do things correctly in accordance with the law and that what they say is true. The previous two points have shown that Harrow Council have:
  • made mistakes in drawing up the 1999 bus-priority TMO which have been repeated ever since;
  • placed advance signs for the width-restriction TMO which failed to comply with Regulation 18 of LATOR 1996;
  • failed to provide advance signage of the bus-priority restriction.
I shall now demonstrate how some signage which has been placed (and on which Harrow rely) is not as prescribed in the Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2016 (TSRGD). This makes the placing of those signs ultra vires. While the signs are indeed present on the highway, administrative law dictates that the misfeasor (Harrow Council) cannot use those signs in making its case.

It follows that the adjudicator must disregard the signs in assessing the adequacy of the signage. This is quite different to the latitude granted by the judgment in R (Neil Herron et al) v The Parking Adjudicator to minor defects in the signage of zones. That case was concerned with a parking zone where there are many signs across the zone. The court held that defects in a few signs, which were remote from the site of the alleged contravention, did not invalidate the zone as a whole. Here we are concerned with whether individual signs have been placed lawfully.

The signs in question are two curved white arrows on the carriageway before the restriction. Harrow calls these "directional white arrows" which "give motorists guidance as to the lane they should be travelling in".

These arrows are known technically as "deflection arrows". They are defined as diagram 1014 at Item 14 in TSRGD 2016 Schedule 11 Part 4. The description is:
Quote
(a) direction in which vehicular traffic should pass a road marking [followed by a list];
(b) obstruction on the carriageway ahead;
(c) reduction in the number to traffic lanes in the carriageway ahead; or
(d) path to be taken by vehicular traffic to avoid a route for tramcars only
Of these, (d) is irrelevant, as is (c). As regards (b), it would be stretching the meaning of “obstruction” to regard a traffic island as an obstruction. That leaves passing one of the specified road markings.

The relevant road markings specified in TSRGD 2016 are:
Quote
Schedule 9 Part 6
    Item 7: boundary of a mandatory cycle lane (diagram 1049B);
    Item11: boundary of a bus lane (diagram 1049A);
    Item 23: white line markings which must not be crossed and where it is prohibited to stop (diagram 1013.1);
Schedule 11 Part 4
    Item 23: white hatching with broken boundary between opposing directions of travel (diagram 1040);
    Item 24: white hatching with a solid boundary at an offside reduction in width (diagram 1040.3);
    Item 25: white hatching with a broken boundary at a nearside reduction in width (diagram 1040.4).
None of these is present on Camrose Avenue. The markings in front of the traffic islands are to diagram 1041, which is very similar to diagram 1040 but has chevron hatching rather than diagonal hatching.

As there is no relevant road marking, the signs to diagram 1014 are not as prescribed in TSRGD 2016.

Section 65 of Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984 empowers Councils to
Quote
cause or permit traffic signs to be placed on or near a road
Section 64 defines "traffic signs" as signs specified by regulations (i.e. TSRGD) or authorised by the relevant authority (i.e. specially authorised by DfT). Harrow has not obtained special permission to place diagram 1014 in a non-prescribed way on Camrose Avenue.

It follows that the signs have not been placed in accordance with the powers granted to the Council. The Council acted ultra vires in placing those signs. They must not be considered as present on the carriageway when assessing the adequacy of the signage.


4. Case-specific argument to be written by the appellant.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2025, 09:02:55 pm by Bustagate »

Re: Harrow, code 33E Used a bus gate Camrose Ave
« Reply #9 on: »
4. Case-specific argument to be written by the appellant.

I would add the grounds provided by Hippocrates as well as from my understanding it causes no harm?

I would also say that it was dark so not enough time to react and too dangerous to reverse out since there's another car behind (shown in CCTV)?

Again, thank you so much for you help.

Re: Harrow, code 33E Used a bus gate Camrose Ave
« Reply #10 on: »
Just put everything into the mix. They will have met it all before.
IF YOU RECEIVE A MOVING TRAFFIC PCN PLEASE READ THIS BEFORE MAKING A REPRESENTATION:

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/moving-traffic-pcns-missing-mandatory-information-the-london-local-authorities-a/msg102639/#msg102639


How do we get more people to fight their PCNs?

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/how-do-we-get-more-people-to-fight-their-pcns/msg41917/#msg41917

If you do not even make a challenge, you will surely join "The Mugged Club".

I am not omniscient. cp8759 and mrmustard are true geniuses. I know my place in the hierarchy of The Three Musketeers. 😊 "The Clinician", "The Gentleman" and "The Showman"

My e mail address for councils:

J.BOND007@H.M.S.S.c/oVAUXHALLBRIDGE/LICENSEDTOEXPOSE.SCAMS.CO.UK

Last mission accomplished:

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/southwark-to-r

Re: Harrow, code 33E Used a bus gate Camrose Ave
« Reply #11 on: »
@satsuki726 Yes, very much to saying that it was dark and that, as you were being followed, it was unsafe for you to brake suddenly and then swerve back into the outer lane. If you appear at the hearing, that is precisely the sort of thing which enables adjudicators to say that they've heard you, you are a credible witness and that they are satisfied that there was no contravention as it was unsafe for you not to go through the bus gate.

Re: Harrow, code 33E Used a bus gate Camrose Ave
« Reply #12 on: »
@Bustagate
@Hippocrates
@Incandescent

Great appreciations for all of your help.

I have just submitted a challenge (Harrow Council) but I guess it's just a part of procedure which will do nothing.

Just wondering if I should attend the hearing for London Tribunals in person? Or it just does not make a difference.

Thanks again.

Re: Harrow, code 33E Used a bus gate Camrose Ave
« Reply #13 on: »
. . .

Just wondering if I should attend the hearing for London Tribunals in person? Or it just does not make a difference.

Thanks again.


It it can make an enormous difference, as in person (these days = by telephone or video-link) you can answer any queries the adjudicator may have and can make any last minute points etc. Advice is to never choose a decision on papers.

But you are not yet at the stage of registering at the Tribunal - wait and see how Harrow respond.

Meanwhile, please post up a copy of what you submitted.

« Last Edit: October 21, 2025, 09:33:25 am by John U.K. »

Re: Harrow, code 33E Used a bus gate Camrose Ave
« Reply #14 on: »
@satsuki726 In due course, please also post Harrow's response to your representations.

I don't think Harrow understand their TMOs on Camrose Avenue. I asked them about the overlap between the two TMOs. They said that when a new bus-priority TMO was made, this automatically revoked the width-restriction TMO insofar as it applied to the bus lanes.

That is not correct. The authors of the width-restriction TMO were clever: they set it up to allow for other TMOs on the non-width-restricted parts of the carriageway, so both TMOs apply simultaneously.

Harrow's explanation of why the bus-priority TMO specifies that westbound the bus-priority restriction lies to the south of the southern traffic island is that the traffic island which splits westbound traffic is the southern of the two traffic islands facing westbound traffic. This appears to me to be post hoc rationalisation of something which they couldn't understand but which had been in the TMO for years, "so it must be true" (aka "it's too ghastly to admit we've ***ed up").

If there were two traffic islands facing westbound traffic and two traffic islands facing eastbound traffic (as required to explain the "northern traffic island" in that part of the TMO), there would be four traffic islands in total.

There are not. There are three kerbed structures at the restrictions:
  • the south-western traffic island, which splits eastbound traffic
  • the north-eastern traffic island, which splits westbound traffic
  • the central median strip, which divides eastbound from westbound traffic
TMOs use formal language. There is nothing in the TMO to suggest that the geographic designation "southern" relates to "as viewed by an approaching motorist who regards the central median strip as a traffic island".

The fact that the width-restriction TMO transforms the south-western traffic island into the "western" one for the prohibited length and the north-eastern one into the "eastern" one demonstrates that these compass points have their normal meaning and are not relative to some other (unspecified) object.