Author Topic: Harrow Camrose Avenue PCN 33E  (Read 1209 times)

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Harrow Camrose Avenue PCN 33E
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Hi, I recently got a PCN after picking up my disabled father from family in an unfamiliar area. Apparently this road has been flagged by the BBC as being a hotspot for PCNs (£1.8m per year just from this road!) and the signage must be very unclear since lots of drivers in front and behind me were using the bus lane too and hadn’t realised. Looking at the google images, the signs are so close to the actual bus lane, that by the time you see it it’s likely too late to spot it, hence why the BBC article says some drivers have resorted to reverse traffic when they have realised, which is obviously dangerous. Also, on the night in question when the weather was bad, unless the sign is adequately lit it’s almost impossible to notice this. Can you please help to avoid this PCN. Thanks in advance!! Please see evidence below, and let me know if you need any further information.

PCN: https://share.icloud.com/photos/025lS7Cj06WdOVn8T80EnPdDg

PCN video:
https://share.icloud.com/photos/0b0WVM1nWTmunkKpgyYLw-7bQ

Location:
51.60185 -0.28791

Photo:
https://share.icloud.com/photos/0b1ui0jePnTsjvE4Nh_U67pmQ
« Last Edit: February 10, 2025, 12:26:37 pm by Nik »

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Re: Harrow Camrose Avenue PCN 33E
« Reply #1 on: »
Ah, yes, that notorious "hardy annual", Camrose Avenue !

Advance sign: -
https://maps.app.goo.gl/YwaLfLDF2H4q3WUz7

The lane allocations through this obstruction are not the usual ones, where the wide lane is in the middle and the narrow lanes are to left and right of it. So this may be the cause of confusion. The signs are all there and seem to be correct. However, this restriction has been here since 2008 (see GSV view), and I don't think there have been many wins over the years.
https://maps.app.goo.gl/uGuCeRJmLQTPS3AL8

You could try looking at the London Tribunals statutory register to see what successful appeals there have been.
https://www.londontribunals.gov.uk/about/registers-appeals
A total of 153 successful appeals since 1st Jan 2008. This one, 2100022073, wins on bad weather and inadequate camera evidence.

Re: Harrow Camrose Avenue PCN 33E
« Reply #2 on: »
Dear Harrow

I make these formal representations against PCN....

1. I did not see any signage as it was inclement weather.
2. The video does not show any upright sign allegedly passed and does not prove the alleged cntravention.

In light of the above, please cancel the PCN

***********

We have won 3 out of 3 in the last 18 months. Be prepared for the long game and I am happy to represent  you.


https://drive.google.com/file/d/1tvfF0CgEGSzUL-UFu-h7LDFgjL4R0-k6/view

And: 2240515018

And: https://drive.google.com/uc?id=1aXzA3M8jCbefIkv2Jfkbpbr6KYUV9vH5
« Last Edit: February 10, 2025, 09:35:11 pm by Hippocrates »
IF YOU RECEIVE A MOVING TRAFFIC PCN PLEASE READ THIS BEFORE MAKING A REPRESENTATION:

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/moving-traffic-pcns-missing-mandatory-information-the-london-local-authorities-a/msg102639/#msg102639


How do we get more people to fight their PCNs?

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/how-do-we-get-more-people-to-fight-their-pcns/msg41917/#msg41917

If you do not even make a challenge, you will surely join "The Mugged Club".

I am not omniscient. cp8759 and mrmustard are true geniuses. I know my place in the hierarchy of The Three Musketeers. 😊 "The Clinician", "The Gentleman" and "The Showman"

My e mail address for councils:

J.BOND007@H.M.S.S.c/oVAUXHALLBRIDGE/LICENSEDTOEXPOSE.SCAMS.CO.UK

Last mission accomplished:

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/southwark-to-r

Re: Harrow Camrose Avenue PCN 33E
« Reply #3 on: »
Thanks so much @Incandescent!! Your images show the advanced sign just highlights a width restriction and not a bus lane. The bus lane itself is so small that by the time you see it (if you see it) it’s too late to avoid it. Recent appeals allowed include it being dark and not adequate lit.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2025, 12:45:25 pm by Nik »

Re: Harrow Camrose Avenue PCN 33E
« Reply #4 on: »
Thanks so much @Hippocrates!! I’ve read those cases and don’t completely understand all the points the adjudicator has written, but I’ll write your points in my appeal. Given some successful appeals have been allowed where drivers have said the signs were noticed too late to manoeuvre into the correct lane, is there any harm saying this or should I stick to the statement that the signs weren’t seen at all by me? That’s very kind of you to offer representing me. Please let me know the process for this, otherwise I’ll pursue this myself with your advice.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2025, 01:02:54 pm by Nik »

Re: Harrow Camrose Avenue PCN 33E
« Reply #5 on: »
@Nik Better if I represent you as the appeal will be fairly technical, mostly to do with photographic evidence I suspect. In the last three cases their evidence in this respect  was antediluvian and/or illegible to determine the dates. BTW: it is a bus gate not a bus lane.

I would not elaborate upon anything else: keep it short and simple and admit to nothing. My last client admitted he knew the restriction and had done it before and was very fortunate to win! I forgot the zip!
« Last Edit: February 16, 2025, 01:35:09 pm by Hippocrates »
IF YOU RECEIVE A MOVING TRAFFIC PCN PLEASE READ THIS BEFORE MAKING A REPRESENTATION:

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/moving-traffic-pcns-missing-mandatory-information-the-london-local-authorities-a/msg102639/#msg102639


How do we get more people to fight their PCNs?

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/how-do-we-get-more-people-to-fight-their-pcns/msg41917/#msg41917

If you do not even make a challenge, you will surely join "The Mugged Club".

I am not omniscient. cp8759 and mrmustard are true geniuses. I know my place in the hierarchy of The Three Musketeers. 😊 "The Clinician", "The Gentleman" and "The Showman"

My e mail address for councils:

J.BOND007@H.M.S.S.c/oVAUXHALLBRIDGE/LICENSEDTOEXPOSE.SCAMS.CO.UK

Last mission accomplished:

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/southwark-to-r

Re: Harrow Camrose Avenue PCN 33E
« Reply #6 on: »
Okay, thanks. Is this your job and do you charge for this, or are you just a very nice person experienced with this and passionate about appealing PCNs? 😂 Presumably I don’t need you to represent me unless it goes to a hearing? It looks like you’re referring to an attachment but I can’t see this?

Re: Harrow Camrose Avenue PCN 33E
« Reply #7 on: »
Okay, thanks. Is this your job and do you charge for this, or are you just a very nice person experienced with this and passionate about appealing PCNs? 😂 Presumably I don’t need you to represent me unless it goes to a hearing? It looks like you’re referring to an attachment but I can’t see this?
This is my purpose in life. Most people agree I am a nice person save for councils. Que attachment?

All I ask is for you  to sign my petition.  ;D
IF YOU RECEIVE A MOVING TRAFFIC PCN PLEASE READ THIS BEFORE MAKING A REPRESENTATION:

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/moving-traffic-pcns-missing-mandatory-information-the-london-local-authorities-a/msg102639/#msg102639


How do we get more people to fight their PCNs?

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/how-do-we-get-more-people-to-fight-their-pcns/msg41917/#msg41917

If you do not even make a challenge, you will surely join "The Mugged Club".

I am not omniscient. cp8759 and mrmustard are true geniuses. I know my place in the hierarchy of The Three Musketeers. 😊 "The Clinician", "The Gentleman" and "The Showman"

My e mail address for councils:

J.BOND007@H.M.S.S.c/oVAUXHALLBRIDGE/LICENSEDTOEXPOSE.SCAMS.CO.UK

Last mission accomplished:

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/southwark-to-r

Re: Harrow Camrose Avenue PCN 33E
« Reply #8 on: »
Not many contributors on here are so heroic as Mr Hippocrates, but two others need mentioning that do offer to act as representatives, Mr Mustard, and, of course, our esteemed administrator, CP8759. All of these charge no fees, so act as the lawyers say, pro bono, but may well ask for a charitable contribution after a win, or some travel expenses. However, you'd have to ask them.  As most adjudications nowadays are phone or (at the TPT) videos as well, there is no travel.

Basically, like me, they are all completely fed up with the venality and rapacity of councils and Transport for London who are ruthlessly enforcing things that really have no traffic management benefit whatsoever, but they get the money rolling in. No doubt the heads of departments involved get substantial bonuses every year too. It's been like this since 1991, so I doubt it's going to be reformed any time soon.

Re: Harrow Camrose Avenue PCN 33E
« Reply #9 on: »
Sorry, my mistake, as I thought you referred to a file @Hippocrates. Sounds like a great purpose, and you’re doing a great job, so happy to sign any petition haha. I couldn’t agree with your points more @Incandescent. Thank you again to you both and keep up the great work!

Re: Harrow Camrose Avenue PCN 33E
« Reply #10 on: »
Today is my last day when I attend two hearings in person. The other two Musketeers are far more knowledgeable than I - even though I am the oldest!  They give me the easy cases.  :D
IF YOU RECEIVE A MOVING TRAFFIC PCN PLEASE READ THIS BEFORE MAKING A REPRESENTATION:

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/moving-traffic-pcns-missing-mandatory-information-the-london-local-authorities-a/msg102639/#msg102639


How do we get more people to fight their PCNs?

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/how-do-we-get-more-people-to-fight-their-pcns/msg41917/#msg41917

If you do not even make a challenge, you will surely join "The Mugged Club".

I am not omniscient. cp8759 and mrmustard are true geniuses. I know my place in the hierarchy of The Three Musketeers. 😊 "The Clinician", "The Gentleman" and "The Showman"

My e mail address for councils:

J.BOND007@H.M.S.S.c/oVAUXHALLBRIDGE/LICENSEDTOEXPOSE.SCAMS.CO.UK

Last mission accomplished:

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/southwark-to-r

Re: Harrow Camrose Avenue PCN 33E
« Reply #11 on: »
Sounds like you’re being modest. Older the wiser I believe! I passed my car ownership to my dad, though he doesn’t drive now and no longer has a license. Does it matter if I say I’m appealing as the driver or as my dad (the owner and registered keeper)? For the reason of appeal, should I select the alleged contravention did not occur, or another option?
« Last Edit: February 17, 2025, 02:58:15 pm by Nik »

Re: Harrow Camrose Avenue PCN 33E
« Reply #12 on: »
The reg. keeper is liable so would need to authorise you to make reps. on his behalf. A simple pdf will do. Contravention did not occur.

parking.enforcement@harrow.gov.uk
« Last Edit: February 17, 2025, 10:04:15 pm by Hippocrates »
IF YOU RECEIVE A MOVING TRAFFIC PCN PLEASE READ THIS BEFORE MAKING A REPRESENTATION:

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/moving-traffic-pcns-missing-mandatory-information-the-london-local-authorities-a/msg102639/#msg102639


How do we get more people to fight their PCNs?

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/how-do-we-get-more-people-to-fight-their-pcns/msg41917/#msg41917

If you do not even make a challenge, you will surely join "The Mugged Club".

I am not omniscient. cp8759 and mrmustard are true geniuses. I know my place in the hierarchy of The Three Musketeers. 😊 "The Clinician", "The Gentleman" and "The Showman"

My e mail address for councils:

J.BOND007@H.M.S.S.c/oVAUXHALLBRIDGE/LICENSEDTOEXPOSE.SCAMS.CO.UK

Last mission accomplished:

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/southwark-to-r

Re: Harrow Camrose Avenue PCN 33E
« Reply #13 on: »
Today is my last day when I attend two hearings in person. The other two Musketeers are far more knowledgeable than I - even though I am the oldest!  They give me the easy cases.  :D

Won the first and the second has been reserved.  Had a most pleasant chat with the Chief Adjudicator and one other afterwards. I may take the violin on Wednesday and play Auld Lang Syne, together with a doctor's note so I can attend all future hearings in person. A staggered cure for my agoraphobia.

Attended with the flyer re my petition  printed on  my T shirt and back of my jacket.

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/petition-to-align-the-llaa-2003-to-the-llaa-1996-(right-to-x-council-witnesses)/msg56899/#msg56899

Plus the hat with the camera sign on it.

Poor mrmustard on Wednesday. His round.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2025, 10:24:39 pm by Hippocrates »
IF YOU RECEIVE A MOVING TRAFFIC PCN PLEASE READ THIS BEFORE MAKING A REPRESENTATION:

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/moving-traffic-pcns-missing-mandatory-information-the-london-local-authorities-a/msg102639/#msg102639


How do we get more people to fight their PCNs?

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/how-do-we-get-more-people-to-fight-their-pcns/msg41917/#msg41917

If you do not even make a challenge, you will surely join "The Mugged Club".

I am not omniscient. cp8759 and mrmustard are true geniuses. I know my place in the hierarchy of The Three Musketeers. 😊 "The Clinician", "The Gentleman" and "The Showman"

My e mail address for councils:

J.BOND007@H.M.S.S.c/oVAUXHALLBRIDGE/LICENSEDTOEXPOSE.SCAMS.CO.UK

Last mission accomplished:

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/southwark-to-r

Re: Harrow Camrose Avenue PCN 33E
« Reply #14 on: »
Sounds like you enjoy it, good luck! Re your petition, there are quite few other examples of unfair situations. For example, motorists can receive a minimum of six points just for briefly touching their phones while stationary at traffic lights, and not even using it - based on loose camera evidence from passers by - while driving under the influence of drink/drugs and causing injury to another person carries a minimum of only three points, and police and truck drivers are still allowed to touch their radio controlled call devices. Seems like there’s a real lack of consistency and balance.