Author Topic: Haringey Council, Temporary parking suspension PCN. N10, code 01(a),Parked in a restricted street.  (Read 755 times)

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Hello

My daughter parked on a road that she uses for work which has no parking restrictions.  When she returned to her car she had a ticket.  There was a temporary suspension in place and there were purportedly signs that she did not see.  The closest sign was low down on a tree (not somewhere you would normally look for a parking restriction sign), also could have had a car obscuring the sign.   

She has taken her own pics of the nearest lampposts etc and there were no signs in place.   The pic from across her car shows a lamppost with no sign but there was a sign in the council pics? 

So we are unsure if the signs were there when she parked, and if there wee positioned badly.

She has already challenged and has been rejected.  I will post this below and the reply.

Any help would be very much appreciated.   Thanks in advance

The council pics

https://ibb.co/album/ZW88Z5

Our pics

https://ibb.co/album/R3N7BB

PCN/Ticket

https://ibb.co/album/1YDCGh

First challenge letter

https://ibb.co/album/sjGC0s

Council response

https://ibb.co/album/Sfpvtp

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It's their usual Fob-Off reply in response to informal representations. As the street isn't restricted, they must first create a Temporary Traffic Regulation Order, (TTRO), then sign it appropriately.  Like any regular TRO, the signage requirements are within the LATOR 2006 regulations, in particular Regulation 18

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1996/2489/contents

Other thing to look at is, have they actually set up a TTRO ?

The question now is, are you prepared to take them all the way and risk the full PCN penalty at London Tribunals. This would involve waiting for the Notice to Owner, submitting reps to that, then, if rejected, registering an appeal at London Tribunals.
Are you the registered owner on the V5C and is the address correct and up-to-date ? The NtO is sent to the V5C address

Hi, thanks for the reply.    I did look at the TMOs that Haringey have applied for and found one that would cover this and is borough wide (see below).

https://ibb.co/album/FLvdvP

My daughter is registered owner to our address.    Happy to risk the rull PCN Penalty.

Para. 2 of the so-called order states..

'..no vehicle shall enter, proceed in or wait .....'

So, where was the 'no entry' sign(s)? (IMO, it should be enter and/or proceed in...because the way it's worded does not make entering an optional restriction).

As the 'order' doesn't create a loading prohibition, then the sign purports to go beyond the powers in the order.

If loading was similarly prohibited, then why was this not included in the contravention?

OP, I'd submit a FoI request now to the council:

As regards the '...........order' please advise where and how this was signed during the period 11-14 Oct. 2024 in Wellfield Ave. N10. Given that the enforcement of the order is subject to the number, siting and wording of 'traffic signs', then the council would have made a point of ensuring that(and recording) the specific locations and methods e.g. on lamppost 10 or on tree o/s no. 27 etc. were consistent with their regulatory duty.

I also require a copy of the council decision which made the order.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2024, 02:18:59 pm by H C Andersen »

This is the picture they will rely on concerning location of signage which is fairly conspicuous not far behind car.


This is the picture they will rely on concerning location of signage which is fairly conspicuous not far behind car.


Yes, but we need to know when the OP parked the car, and when the sign was put up. Also was the signage sufficient to convey the restriction. Their letter rejecting the informal challenge says nothing about when the sign was erected.

Hi.  Right I think I understand.  So when you say a Fol request now, do you mean i write and request this information now?  I am asking them where and how the order was signed during this period (as you worded above)?

Also asking them for a copy of the council decision which made the order for the specific road where my daughters car was ticketed?

Thanks

Yes, the OP hasn't said when the car was parked - which was when?

It was parked at 7:30 am, the ticket was issued at 9:06am

That sign's about tree maintenance...or is it? The standard for signing is not for the council to shove up a sign which a driver is NOT expecting to see somewhere in what they think is the vicinity and then blame the motorist.

IMO, the entrance to the road must carry a warning that restrictions are in place, apart from anything else because 'entry' is prohibited!

It was parked at 7:30 am, the ticket was issued at 9:06am
So this implies the sign was in position when you parked. The sign is very close to your car, so I have to say it does look like the contravention is made out, but was there only one sign ? It would be easy to miss a single sign at 07.30 which is around sun rise in November.

Hence the FoI request.

Hello:

We replied to to Haringey council as advised with the following:

Dear Mrs Butt

Thank you for your letter dated 15th November 2024.

As regards the TMO please advise where and how this was signed during the period 11-14 Oct. 2024 in Wellfield Ave. N10. Given that the enforcement of the order is subject to the number, siting and wording of 'traffic signs', then the council would have made a point of ensuring that (and recording) the specific locations and methods e.g. on lamppost 10 or on tree o/s no. 27 etc. were consistent with their regulatory duty.



I also require a copy of the council decision which made the order.

Kind regards

------------------------------------------------------and have just received the following response:

https://ibb.co/rfVv80m

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks



OP, I probably should have explained what FoI means: Freedom of Information.

It is not correspondence with parking services and unfortunately you appear to have written to someone in parking.

I would respond to the council - look up their FoI ..

https://www.haringey.gov.uk/council-elections/data-finance/information-data-requests/freedom-information-foi

Dear Sir,
I wrote to the council on ** , see the attached letter ***.

I expected this to be treated as a Freedom of Information request, but instead your Sheffield-based Parking Services department has treated it as part of the formal enforcement process and responded - see attached.

I should be grateful if the council would now treat my letter as a FoI request and respond accordingly.

Hi

Oh Ok, my mistake.

I'll do that now

Thanks