3. Hackney Council - PCN for LTN 52m prohibition, Stoke Newington Church St - Sent to old address
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Re: Hackney Council - PCN for LTN 52m prohibition, Stoke Newington Church St - Sent to old address
« Reply #15 on: »
Quote from: cp8759 on September 27, 2023, 12:03:38 am
Quote from: Norman83 on September 26, 2023, 06:10:22 pm
OK so this would explain it... I received a letter today to my current address, with the same PCN as before.
Show us this document. It is almost certainly an unlawful document but unfortunately for whatever reason you seem to be believing everything the council tell you, hook line & sinker.

Also please stop typing in all caps, you can use indent tags or italics or whatever else.


Hi - here is the link to the new PCN.
https://imgur.com/a/2AIZ81Q

Is this document is unlawful, or should I not believe it? Please explain.

The Caps was because I copied in from the PE3 form where I wrote it - form said I had to write in caps (would never normally write in caps)

thanks
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Re: Hackney Council - PCN for LTN 52m prohibition, Stoke Newington Church St - Sent to old address
« Reply #16 on: »
You may wish to redact your name and address on the front page.
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Re: Hackney Council - PCN for LTN 52m prohibition, Stoke Newington Church St - Sent to old address
« Reply #17 on: »
Quote from: Norman83 on September 28, 2023, 08:01:49 am
Is this document is unlawful, or should I not believe it? Please explain.
There is a 28 day limit on service of a pcn, beginning with the date of contravention.
The alternative is if an earlier pcn has been cancelled by the court and you've told us you haven't even reached the stage of applying to the court.

It is further unlawful because there is already an extant pcn which, as far as we know, hasn't been cancelled (by anyone).
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Re: Hackney Council - PCN for LTN 52m prohibition, Stoke Newington Church St - Sent to old address
« Reply #18 on: »
This is going to be easy-peasy: the PCN is unlawful but remains valid unless and until it is either cancelled by the council or struck down by the tribunal. Therefore, make representations against it:

Dear London Borough of Hackney,

I challenge liability for PCN QZ14186291 because the penalty charge notice is quite blatantly out of time. I remind the authority that if it wishes to avail itself of any exemption to the primary limitation period, the burden of proving an exemption rests on the authority.

Yours faithfully,


The council has basically shot itself in the foot by unlawfully reissuing the PCN, so we might as well take the easy win.
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
Re: Hackney Council - PCN for LTN 52m prohibition, Stoke Newington Church St - Sent to old address
« Reply #19 on: »

Thank you all for your responses- I've been away for 10 days on a very busy job, so catching up on things now.

Here is the amended PCN with address removed.
https://imgur.com/a/7DGe16z

Neil B - thanks for your draft letter of representation.

In terms of making this representation- do I respond as the a) driver, b) keeper, or c) driver and keeper? (if it makes any difference)

Also please take a look at this screen grab. Is there anything else you'd add?
I've categorised my representation as 'other' on all options- I think that's correct.
Do I need to add any supporting evidence, refer to the date of the new (unlawful) PCN or is short and sweet the key thing here?

https://imgur.com/a/p5azw0W

thanks
Chris
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Re: Hackney Council - PCN for LTN 52m prohibition, Stoke Newington Church St - Sent to old address
« Reply #20 on: »
Quote from: Norman83 on October 10, 2023, 12:37:39 pm

Neil B - thanks for your draft letter of representation.

In terms of making this representation- do I respond as the a) driver, b) keeper, or c) driver and keeper? (if it makes any difference)

I didn't write the draft cp8759 did but I agree with it.

The owner, taken to be the registered keeper, is liable and your question just confuses matters.
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Re: Hackney Council - PCN for LTN 52m prohibition, Stoke Newington Church St - Sent to old address
« Reply #21 on: »
Quote from: Neil B on October 10, 2023, 04:44:21 pm
Quote from: Norman83 on October 10, 2023, 12:37:39 pm

Neil B - thanks for your draft letter of representation.

In terms of making this representation- do I respond as the a) driver, b) keeper, or c) driver and keeper? (if it makes any difference)

I didn't write the draft cp8759 did but I agree with it.

The owner, taken to be the registered keeper, is liable and your question just confuses matters.

Apologies CP8759, misread the responses.

I only asked the question as the representations form makes me choose one of those options.
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Re: Hackney Council - PCN for LTN 52m prohibition, Stoke Newington Church St - Sent to old address
« Reply #22 on: »
OK I've submitted my challenge - fingers crossed for an easy win, as you say Neil B.

Here is the screen I was given after submitting, if that's of any use.
https://imgur.com/a/UO5rEaI

Thanks again CP8759 for the draft, and everyone else for your advice, I'll come back when they have responded.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2023, 02:06:36 pm by Norman83 »
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Re: Hackney Council - PCN for LTN 52m prohibition, Stoke Newington Church St - Sent to old address
« Reply #23 on: »
Hi all, OK I have now had a response from Hackney council, and it's not the outcome I was hoping for.

They have not cancelled the PCN, claiming that the PCN was not 'out of time' as I had stated. They say they conducted a pre-debt check after the Charge Certificate was sent to me, which is when they were provided with my new address.

Please see here for their response.
https://imgur.com/a/uFs8fHi

@cp8759 @Neil B please let me know your thoughts.
thanks
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Re: Hackney Council - PCN for LTN 52m prohibition, Stoke Newington Church St - Sent to old address
« Reply #24 on: »
That's an interesting one; I dont think I've ever seen this before.  They are saying that before they registered the debt and sent out an Order for Recovery, they checked the address again , and if a new one comes up, presumably with the same keeper, they then send out a fresh PCN. They don't say, but presumably cancel the Charge Certificate. I'm not sure they are following due legal process, so hopefully CP8759, or Neil B know more.

To re-check the keeper address they will have made a second enquiry of the DVLA for the reg. number of the vehicle.
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Re: Hackney Council - PCN for LTN 52m prohibition, Stoke Newington Church St - Sent to old address
« Reply #25 on: »
The PCN is out of time, there is no allowance in the law for any sort of pre-debt check.

I am happy to represent you at the tribunal if you want to appeal this.
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
Re: Hackney Council - PCN for LTN 52m prohibition, Stoke Newington Church St - Sent to old address
« Reply #26 on: »
Hi @cp8759 , thanks for your offer.

How confident are you that we will win the appeal?

I'm very busy at the moment, quite a lot of stress in my work, and while I'd absolutely like us to win this, I would not want to be in a position of losing and having to pay more than the 'reduced' £65.

Also I have to ask myself if the time it would take to get this appeal done, would 'cost' me more than £65 in time and stress.

Let me know your thoughts, thanks
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Re: Hackney Council - PCN for LTN 52m prohibition, Stoke Newington Church St - Sent to old address
« Reply #27 on: »
Quote from: Norman83 on November 03, 2023, 06:48:56 pm
Hi @cp8759 , thanks for your offer.

How confident are you that we will win the appeal?
At least 90%.

This won't take you any time at all, you'll just have to send me a couple of documents and I'll do everything else. I'll drop you a PM with details of the next steps, should you wish to proceed.
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
Re: Hackney Council - PCN for LTN 52m prohibition, Stoke Newington Church St - Sent to old address
« Reply #28 on: »
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
Re: Hackney Council - PCN for LTN 52m prohibition, Stoke Newington Church St - Sent to old address
« Reply #29 on: »
"well meaning" ? I don't think so !
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