3. Hackney / 53 - Pedestrian zone / School hours/
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Hackney / 53 - Pedestrian zone / School hours/
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Hi
I'd appreciate for some advice how to appeal against this PCN as we have a few drivers and we are not sure who was the driver at the time this PCN was issued.


Google street view: https://goo.gl/maps/rPacssNSp8aHnRPg8

Thank you very much in advance

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Re: Hackney / 53 - Pedestrian zone / School hours/
« Reply #1 on: »
If it was approached as a left turn, you could argue there is no advance warning making it a trap.  From the opposite direction, (a right turn), the signs are quite clear, as they are also on direct approach from the opposite street.
Apart from that, there could be arguments about too much to read from a moving vehicle, although if the streets are 20 mph, that is more difficult. The PCN may contain fatal errors, so post it please.
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Re: Hackney / 53 - Pedestrian zone / School hours/
« Reply #2 on: »
Hi
Thank you for the advice. The PCN is attached as PDF file but will upload it again as an image.


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Re: Hackney / 53 - Pedestrian zone / School hours/
« Reply #3 on: »
Photos on the PCN looks like a left turn was made into the street. This is where the signs are least visible, so you could argue signs are passed as the turn is in progress. There is no advance warning sign.

Of course the council, ever greedy for your money, will say it is all tickety-boo, and reject your representations.  You would then have to take the double-or-quits gamble of adjudication at London Tribunals.

I don't think the PCN has any fatal errors, but others more expert than me will no doubt find them if they're there.
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Re: Hackney / 53 - Pedestrian zone / School hours/
« Reply #4 on: »
Video:



No advance warning signs on the main road: https://maps.app.goo.gl/ZG5hbNyUJEb5R8Po7

The identity of the driver is irrelevant, the recipient of the PCN is liable no matter who was driving (unless you're a hire company and the vehicle was on hire). That being said, I suggest you put a system in place to identify exactly who is driving your vehicles because if it were a police matter such as speeding, red lights or using a hand-held mobile phone (where the driver does need to be identified), your company could end up with a fine of thousands of pounds for failing to identify the driver.

Anyway going back to this PCN, I've requested the traffic management order. In the meantime please can you confirm what the purpose of the journey was (you must have logs, surely?) and also whether the vehicle has a dashcam?
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
Re: Hackney / 53 - Pedestrian zone / School hours/
« Reply #5 on: »
Hi
Thank you for your response.
The driver was delivering orders.
The van has no dashboard Camera.
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Re: Hackney / 53 - Pedestrian zone / School hours/
« Reply #6 on: »
Well you might as well have a go:

Dear London Borough of Hackney,

We challenge liability for PCN QZ1484700A on the grounds that the alleged contravention did not occur. We note there are no advance warning signs on Cazenove Road so our driver would have had no notice of the restriction, by the time the signage would have been in view the driver would already be committed to the turn. We therefore contend that the signage is inadequate.

Yours faithfully,

I fully expect a rejection, post it up on here when you get it.
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
Re: Hackney / 53 - Pedestrian zone / School hours/
« Reply #7 on: »
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
Re: Hackney / 53 - Pedestrian zone / School hours/
« Reply #8 on: »
Hi
Thank you for your help. Unfortunately, Hackney council rejected my appeal. Please see letter attached. Do I have any way to continue with it? 

Kind regards

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Re: Hackney / 53 - Pedestrian zone / School hours/
« Reply #9 on: »
Councils have a duty adequately to sign any restrictions they impose. Whilst the placement of advance warning signs is not mandatory, if the signs at the start of the restriction cannot be seen before the motorist makes the turn into the restricted street, then inadequate signage can be argued.  For a time-limited restriction, an advance warning could be argued as more important, because at the point of passing the sign, the motorist has to very quickly decide if he can proceed or not.
However, they have re-offered the discount, so it is your decision; pay-up, or take them to London Tribunals with the full PCN penalty in play.
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Re: Hackney / 53 - Pedestrian zone / School hours/
« Reply #10 on: »
Can you please email me an unredacted copy of both the PCN and the notice of rejection? I just want to double-check something.

Also, I wonder if they're using chat-gpt to compose these rejections? Half the paragraphs seem to be copy / pasted from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traffic_Signs_Regulations_and_General_Directions
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
Re: Hackney / 53 - Pedestrian zone / School hours/
« Reply #11 on: »
I can't see any technical challenge to the wording of the documents. Oddly the council says the google images are from 2022, but they don't say that the signage has since been changed.

An appeal on a left turn could succeed depending on which adjudicator you get, so you'll have to decide whether to settle for £65 now or risk the full amount at the tribunal.
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
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