Author Topic: Glasgow City Council Waiting when prohibited Carmunnock Road  (Read 1112 times)

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Glasgow City Council Waiting when prohibited Carmunnock Road
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I have been issued a PCN for "waiting, loading or unloading when prohibited" near Mount Florida primary school park during a "major event" at hampden park. This is not the first time I have been issued with a PCN for parking near hampden park during a "major event" in fact this is the 2nd one in the same month :( . First of all both times I had not seen any PCN on my windscreen, I don't understand if someone is taking them off or it is by nature, so on both occasions I have been unable to pay the reduced rate lower amount of £30 rather I am forced to be notified of the PCN by post over a month later saying I have to make the full penalty charge of £60. This seems to be a joke as they should send a letter within 14 days confirming the PCN but no they wait till a month letter and make you pay the full £60 assuming you have just ignored the first PCN even though you have had no prior notification of the contravention leading to me making the same contravention twice. Second of all they seem to display these "no loading during major events" signs much later in the day as I have parked there on both occasions and seen no sign leading me to believe that it would be okay to park there, I work at hampden usually so arrive much earlier before the events begin so seems to be they are putting the signs on later throughout the day. For example I have attached an image of the "no loading" sign and it says from 2pm to midnight but I would have arrived at 1pm on that day making that wholly unfair as I would have not seen the sign and the contravention was given at 5:07pm. They should be putting up these signs the day before or early morning at the very least for prior notice. I will make it clear that I am not parked in a loading bay but rather on  a single yellow line as will be attached in the post. My question is can anyone give me some advice on what I should do regarding the notification of the PCN's a month later by post, not giving me a chance to appeal earlier or pay reduced amount and what can I do about the sign being displayed later on in the day, not allowing me to see it earlier essentially giving me no prior notification of the loading restriction? Another thing I wanted to add is notice how the letter says "Wating, loading or unloading when prohibited" but the sign just says "no loading" is this a potential conflict? What is defined as a "major event" is it any event or only select ones if so that should be made clear on the sign what event is being referenced to not just "major events" and dates? One more thing I have noticed a slight error as the PCN was issued at the time of the 17:07 but the picture taken as evidence was taken at 17:08 could I use this as support of appeal? thank you for your help guys.
Google street view: https://maps.app.goo.gl/uWXGrzvByXzBxtrYA
https://imgur.com/a/zsFTcEC
https://imgur.com/a/AjnADJI
https://imgur.com/a/bZV3xUz

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Re: Glasgow City Council Waiting when prohibited Carmunnock Road
« Reply #1 on: »
The sign for the bay you parked in is in two parts, one part tells you no waiting or loading during events, then there is a second part, added on at the bottom, telling you the dates and times. This second part should be added some days before an event is to take place so that anybody parking beforehand, and intending to leave their car will know whether they can leave it or not..  So when you parked up the previous day, did you go and look at the sign ? If you didn't, you have failed in your obligation as a motorist parking on a yellow line to seek out the restrictions sign for the bay to make sure you could park. If the council are only putting the event day date(s) and times at the time they start thus giving no notice at all, then they are acting unlawfully. Do you have any proof of no event dates being placed on that sign when you parked ?

Interestingly, there is a zone for Hampden events, and signs at the entry as per here: -
https://maps.app.goo.gl/qBJB8nHRk2XHSPpR6
The event dates are on these signs, and when these are updated, the sign where you parked, and also the other bay opposite, should be updated at the same time.

Secondly, after service of the PCN to the car, the next legal obligation on the council is to send a Notice to Owner after 28 days have elapsed with them receiving representation, or the PCN being paid. There is no obligation to send anything at 14 days.

The sign does not just indicate No Loading ,because it also displays the symbol for No Waiting alongside the no loading text.

So the obvious question to ask is, have you submitted any representations against these PCNs, or have you just coughed-up the discounted penalty ?

Re: Glasgow City Council Waiting when prohibited Carmunnock Road
« Reply #2 on: »
Hello, thanks for your reply.
I want to highlight I did not park the day before, I actually parked on the day of the event and do not remember seeing the sign adding to the point that they may have added the sign later on. I do not have any evidence of the no sign on the day but there is a football match due to be played on the 10th of August at Hampden perhaps I could follow up on when the signs are being put up to see if they are being placed well in advance or not. Do you think this would be useful as this may not reflect the story on the day of the event in June? I have not yet submitted any representations against the PCN as I have just received it today but I want to confirm I have not paid any amount to the council as of yet in fact as mentioned in the post I was not even given the option to pay the reduced amount as the PCN was not found on my car windscreen and only got notification of the PCN a month later.

Re: Glasgow City Council Waiting when prohibited Carmunnock Road
« Reply #3 on: »
You must certainly submit reps,  if just to request the discount be re-offered as the PCN was not found on the vehicle and you only became aware of an alleged contravention when the NtO arrived. Any council with at least some modicum of probity and morality should re-offer the discounted amount.

You say you can visit the parking bay a few days before the 10th August, so I recommend you do so just to find out it they are playng fast and loose with their legal obligation to give notice of an event day. It might also be best if you can visit on the 9th too, because if the sign is not in place then they really are behaving in a totally unlawful way.
Finally !
Do Glasgow have a PCN webpages where you can view the PCN and also photos taken by the CEO ? If they do, have a look for your PCNs and see if the CEO took any.

Re: Glasgow City Council Waiting when prohibited Carmunnock Road
« Reply #4 on: »
Thank you for your help. I wanted to mention the other PCN I had received I did submit reps based on not seeing the PCN on my windscreen and for the council to offer me the discounted amount (suspicious two times in the same month that they were not there) but this council has no morality stating that, "The issuing Parking Attendant’s notes confirm the Penalty Charge Notice was fixed to the vehicle at the time of issue. The removal of a Penalty Charge Notice from a vehicle by an unauthorised person does not invalidate the charge. I am therefore unable to accede to your request to pay £30.00." I sadly paid the full PCN after this but after finding out about this website just today and receiving another PCN today in the same area I am certainly not making a representation to the council without your guys advice of course. What a joke, twice I have been unable to pay the discounted sum because I have not seen the ticket on the windscreen but they offer no sympathy just want the full amount. I will certainly visit the parking bay on these days and find out about the sign situation. Nonetheless I still plan to submit representations but if you can give me further advice on if there is anything I can do to convince them to give me the discounted rate that would be great? And if found to be acting unlawfully with the signs I will share the images on here and hopefully we can make a good representation on that basis. There PCN page does not allow you to view the PCN annoyingly but in the photo I shared in the post it is there on the windscreen of the car. If you would like the full letter they sent me as a reply to the appeal I can send you this too.

Re: Glasgow City Council Waiting when prohibited Carmunnock Road
« Reply #5 on: »
If Glasgow are playing hard-ball, then you need to do the same and in your reps put them to proof that a PCN was actually served to the vehicle, saying that this is now the second time an NtO has arrived for a PCN at the same location when no PCN was found on the vehicle. You also in those same reps ask for proof that the event date was on the sign for the bay.

Re: Glasgow City Council Waiting when prohibited Carmunnock Road
« Reply #6 on: »
Okay thank you, that is what I will do.
Do you think something along these lines would be good:
"I require full proof that a PCN was actually served to the vehicle, as this is the second time in the same month  a notice to owner has arrived for a PCN at the same location when no PCN was found on the car. I also require full proof of when the date was added to the sign as when I had parked I did not see the date on the sign, so I need proof that Glasgow city council had done their legal obligation to give prior notice of an event day which I believe did not occur, so evidence of this would be required as well."

Re: Glasgow City Council Waiting when prohibited Carmunnock Road
« Reply #7 on: »
Okay thank you, that is what I will do.
Do you think something along these lines would be good:
"I require full proof that a PCN was actually served to the vehicle, as this is the second time in the same month  a notice to owner has arrived for a PCN at the same location when no PCN was found on the car. I also require full proof of when the date was added to the sign as when I had parked I did not see the date on the sign, so I need proof that Glasgow city council had done their legal obligation to give prior notice of an event day which I believe did not occur, so evidence of this would be required as well."
Yes. Please post your draft here before submitting.

Re: Glasgow City Council Waiting when prohibited Carmunnock Road
« Reply #8 on: »
This is what I have drafted, please feel free to let me know if there is anything to change or add.
Dear Sir/Madam
Subject: Penalty Charge Notice
Reference: GP9637581A 28/06/2024
I write to you in respect of the above Penalty Charge Notice issued to my vehicle which was issued for the alleged reason (waiting, loading or unloading when prohibited).
I wish to appeal it as the contravention did not occur for the following reasons:
No PCN served to the vehicle as no PCN was found on the vehicle and not giving sufficient notice of event days on signage. I require full proof that a PCN was served to the vehicle, as this is the second time a notice to owner has arrived for a PCN at the same location when no PCN was found on the vehicle. I also require proof as in date and time of when the event days and timings of the restrictions were added to the signage as when I had parked, I did not see the signage of the event days and time of restriction, so I require full evidence that Glasgow City Council are doing their legal obligation and giving a least a couple of days prior notice of the event days restriction.  I also want to make clear that on both occasions you have not allowed me to pay the discounted sum, rather I am finding out about the contravention through a NtO letter a month later and being required to pay the full amount, this is causing me a lot of financial and emotional stress as I am struggling to keep within my means and now being forced to pay the full amount of the PCN when not being aware that a PCN has actually been served to the vehicle. This is diminished responsibility from the council and must do better to ensure the registered owner is aware of their contravention being served to their vehicle on the day of the alleged contravention to not allow repeat PCN’s being served to the vehicle for the same restriction.
I look forward to hearing back from you.
Yours faithfully

Re: Glasgow City Council Waiting when prohibited Carmunnock Road
« Reply #9 on: »
I've done a few small edits. See if you like them

Subject: Penalty Charge Notice
Reference: GP9637581A 28/06/2024


I deny liability for the above PCN penalty on the basis that the contravention did not occur for the following reasons:

(1) No PCN served to the vehicle.
No PCN was found on the vehicle therefore I require that if you decline these representations that you provide full proof that a PCN was served to the vehicle.  This is the second time a notice to owner has arrived for a PCN at the same location, when no PCN was found on the vehicle.

(2) The date and times of the next event was not provided on the sign for the single yellow line concerned
I therefore require that if you decline these representations, that you provide full proof of when the next event days and timings of the restrictions were added to the signage.  When I had parked, I did not see any details on the sign of these restrictions.  Glasgow City Council are under a legal and, indeed, moral obligation to give prior notice of the event days restriction; but have failed to do this.

I also want to complain that on both occasions when I received a Notice to Owner, without prior service of the PCN, and submitted a representation, you demanded payment of the full penalty, even though the circumstances were clearly explained in my representations.

In view of the above points, I demand that the PCN be cancelled forthwith, and that Glasgow City Council cease enforcement until they have investigated why event day information is not being provided on the sign, and have corrected their process for its provision.

Yours faithfully
« Last Edit: August 03, 2024, 12:05:43 pm by Incandescent »

Re: Glasgow City Council Waiting when prohibited Carmunnock Road
« Reply #10 on: »
Yes I like this a lot. I felt as well that I was quite restrained in my response so being direct in your demands from the council is the right way forward. I will now submit this appeal to the council and keep you updated on any responses. Thank you for your help.

COUNCIL UPDATE
Hello this is an update from the council. They have issued a notice of rejection to the representations made against them basically saying the signs were "erected prior to the event" and repeating "the removal of a Penalty Charge Notice does not invalidate the charge" and they are not able to offer me the discounted amount. I have attached the letter in this post for you to have a read. I can now either pay the full amount of £60 or appeal to independent parking and bus lanes adjudicator.https://imgur.com/a/udlqPEp

Re: Glasgow City Council Waiting when prohibited Carmunnock Road
« Reply #12 on: »
By not re-offering the discount, it is now a total no-brainer to take them to the Scottish adjudicators as there is no additional cost. Their photo shows something under the windscreen wiper that I assume is the PCN envelope. HOwever the CEO does not seem to have taken a photo of the sign showing the date of the event. Are you certain there was no event date on the sign ?

Re: Glasgow City Council Waiting when prohibited Carmunnock Road
« Reply #13 on: »
Hello, there was dates on the sign(link attached) but the problem is they have not provided the date when they added this to the sign, rather in their notice of rejection they say it was "prior to the event" this could be the the morning of or the day before the event(not giving sufficient legal notice) but they have not explicitly mentioned this. https://imgur.com/a/AjnADJI

Re: Glasgow City Council Waiting when prohibited Carmunnock Road
« Reply #14 on: »
Good point, so as it is a no-brainer to take them to the adjudicators, (in Scotland it is the First Tier Tribunal I understand), you must make sure you make this the key issue since the dates were not there when you parked at <time>.  These events are known about months in advance so the signs should also be updated to a similar time scale.