Author Topic: Failure to not comply with a no entry signage grove hill road/peterborough road ha1 Harrow pcn  (Read 965 times)

0 Members and 85 Guests are viewing this topic.

We've seen this one before - question is this manoeuvre a breach of the no entry given the visibility of the approach from the left - I don't think it is but can't recall outcomes. We should check the register.


Has the statutory declaration been sent? it would seem that it has been accepted and the next step is the councils in resending the PCN wait for that

No, I wrote to the council that the initial pcn wasn’t received. So they adjusted the penalty. However I feel, my sister might have grounds to appeal. What do you think about the signage not being adequate from where she drove from?

Checked the register for Harrow council and that particular road, nothing I can rely on but I’ll broaden my search tomorrow.

We've seen this one before - question is this manoeuvre a breach of the no entry given the visibility of the approach from the left - I don't think it is but can't recall outcomes. We should check the register.



They've put it on hold and say they'll accept a challenge.

The tribunal can be hard to search - I'll have a look tomorrow.


It’s been like this a week now, think they’ve just reduced it and not communicated it. I guess, my sister can email in a challenge and potentially go to tribunal if need be.

I feel the sign, when coming from where she drove from, isn’t clear.

They've put it on hold and say they'll accept a challenge.

The tribunal can be hard to search - I'll have a look tomorrow.



I think there is a good case.

I've looked at the tribunal and there are cases refused where drivers have turned right and u-turned, as clearly they would have seen signs. Once you go over the road lines and past signs the contravention is made out.

There is one case where the adjudicator couldn't be sure the line was breached.

But your video showing the approach from the left is convincing as the nearside sign is not pointing towards traffic.

An adjudicator also posted this which someone may be able to make sense of:

[ For future reference it would appear that by virtue of Schedule 3 Part 5 Para 1 Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2016 the sign must be supported by (in this case) a TMO. The sign in question is not specified as a s36 Traffic Sign - column 6 of Schedule 3 part 2 specifies the applicable provisions of Part 4 only as 2 and 4, not 1 which is the application of s 36. If the Council is aware of authority or legislation to the contrary it might be wise to refer to it in any future case of this type]


Anyway I think a challenge should be sent soonest and I would send:

Dear Harrow,

thanks for giving me the opportunity to challenge the PCN and I do so on the grounds that the no entry signage could not be seen on my approach from the left, where I only entered the mouth of Grove Hill Road to turn around as seen in your video.

I have been back to the location and made a video walking to Grove Hill Road, and the left-hand no entry sign is not positioned to be seen by a driver turning left.

I enclose a picture.

I trust you will agree that no contravention occurred owing to inadequate signage and look forward to your early confirmation of cancellation.

---------

« Last Edit: May 19, 2025, 07:41:44 pm by stamfordman »

Thanks Stamfordman. I’ll get sister to email them with your suggested challenge, unless anyone else, has another input.

I think there is a good case.

I've looked at the tribunal and there are cases refused where drivers have turned right and u-turned, as clearly they would have seen signs. Once you go over the road lines and past signs the contravention is made out.

There is one case where the adjudicator couldn't be sure the line was breached.

But your video showing the approach from the left is convincing as the nearside sign is not pointing towards traffic.

An adjudicator also posted this which someone may be able to make sense of:

[ For future reference it would appear that by virtue of Schedule 3 Part 5 Para 1 Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2016 the sign must be supported by (in this case) a TMO. The sign in question is not specified as a s36 Traffic Sign - column 6 of Schedule 3 part 2 specifies the applicable provisions of Part 4 only as 2 and 4, not 1 which is the application of s 36. If the Council is aware of authority or legislation to the contrary it might be wise to refer to it in any future case of this type]


Anyway I think a challenge should be sent soonest and I would send:

Dear Harrow,

thanks for giving me the opportunity to challenge the PCN and I do so on the grounds that the no entry signage could not be seen on my approach from the left, where I only entered the mouth of Grove Hill Road to turn around as seen in your video.

I have been back to the location and made a video walking to Grove Hill Road, and the left-hand no entry sign is not positioned to be seen by a driver turning left.

I enclose a picture.

I trust you will agree that no contravention occurred owing to inadequate signage and look forward to your early confirmation of cancellation.

---------



Here are some screenshots you can attach with the representation showing the approach.





I don't know the date of the quote stamf gave from an adjudicator about the need fr a TMO. In 2016 when the TSRGD was updated the no entry sign was missed off the s36 sign list So a breech of them was no longer a breech of the RTA 1988 and became a local TMO required issue. This error was corrected at a later date circa 2020 IIRC

But yes there was no chance to see the sign positioned as it is

I don't know the date of the quote stamf gave from an adjudicator about the need fr a TMO. In 2016 when the TSRGD was updated the no entry sign was missed off the s36 sign list So a breech of them was no longer a breech of the RTA 1988 and became a local TMO required issue. This error was corrected at a later date circa 2020 IIRC

Ah that clears it up. The case was in 2018

2180301985

The Appellant’s case, which I have heard from her in person, is essentially that she merely executed a U-turn and did not contravene the No Entry signs.

On looking at the CCTV evidence I am unable to be satisfied that the vehicle did pass the signs, at least to a degree more than the legally insignificant amount which would attract the principle of de minimis. The Council , relying as it does on the signs alone, must prove that the signs were clearly passed, not merely the road markings. The Appeal is therefore allowed.

[ For future reference it would appear that by virtue of Schedule 3 Part 5 Para 1 Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2016 the sign must be supported by (in this case) a TMO. The sign in question is not specified as a s36 Traffic Sign - column 6 of Schedule 3 part 2 specifies the applicable provisions of Part 4 only as 2 and 4, not 1 which is the application of s 36. If the Council is aware of authority or legislation to the contrary it might be wise to refer to it in any future case of this type]


I’m completely lost now with you guys talking about legislations 🥴

What exactly, should I get my sister to do please from here? Copy your letter and pictures and send to the council, challenging the penalty?

Sorry we were just clearing up a possible issue that isn't now relevant.

You can send the challenge I did and attach the stills from your video I posted if their online system allows this.

Thanks, their online one won’t allow it, I’ll get her to email it. Will update once they reply.

Yes they did invite challenge by email so it should be fine. Make sure the PCN number is in the subject field along with wording such as challenge to PCN no xxxxxx

and repeat details in body of text.


Dear Harrow,

thanks for giving me the opportunity to challenge PCN no xxxxxxxxx and I do so on the grounds that the no entry signage could not be seen on my approach from the left, where I only entered the mouth of Grove Hill Road to turn around as seen in your video.

I have been back to the location and made a video walking to Grove Hill Road, and the left-hand no entry sign is not positioned to be seen by a driver turning left.

I enclose pictures of the approach from the video for your attention.

I trust you will agree that no contravention occurred owing to inadequate signage and look forward to your early confirmation of cancellation.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2025, 03:16:37 pm by stamfordman »