3. Ealing, 53J entering a pedestrian zone Ruislip Rd entering Mansell Rd, Decision Refused
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Ealing, 53J entering a pedestrian zone Ruislip Rd entering Mansell Rd, Decision Refused
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Hi Everyone, thanks in advance for advice

Received a PCN for entering a pedestrian zone turning left into Mansell Road from Ruislip Rd. Appealed to the council as the advanced warning sign approaching turn into Mansell completely obscured by tree and prohibition sign on Mansell Rd partially obscured by small tree. Appeal rejected and taken to Tribunal which happened yesterday. Argued on the same grounds but unfortunately decision refused.
Question is, at this stage, do I have a course of action left?


PCN:










Representations:




Obscured advanced sign Ruislip Road




Obscured advanced sign Ruislip Rd, drivers side view





Partially obscured prohibition sign Mansell Road



Councils own photo showing obscured prohibition sign Mansell Road




Google maps link:
https://maps.app.goo.gl/Dz1vjWTV5SvV9nL27
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Re: Ealing, 53J entering a pedestrian zone Ruislip Rd entering Mansell Rd, Decision Refused
« Reply #1 on: »
Please let me know if you'd like to see more correspondence or if situation is hopeless. Thanks!!!
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Re: Ealing, 53J entering a pedestrian zone Ruislip Rd entering Mansell Rd, Decision Refused
« Reply #2 on: »
Tribunal case number?
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Re: Ealing, 53J entering a pedestrian zone Ruislip Rd entering Mansell Rd, Decision Refused
« Reply #3 on: »
 Case Reference Number 224032215A
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Re: Ealing, 53J entering a pedestrian zone Ruislip Rd entering Mansell Rd, Decision Refused
« Reply #4 on: »
London Tribunals case number, please.
However reading your representations which are very confrontational, this obviously made the council play hard ball and also looked bad when the adjudicator saw them.

The only avenue open to you after a ruling against you is to request a review, but on what grounds we can't say until we've read the judgment and both yours and the council cases.

It's never a good idea going in with guns blazing at first reps stage.

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Re: Ealing, 53J entering a pedestrian zone Ruislip Rd entering Mansell Rd, Decision Refused
« Reply #5 on: »
Having read my appeal I have to agree with you. It was unneccesarily confrontational, my mother passed three months earlier and I was my father's sole carer as he was going through cancer, this pcn was the last thing I  needed.
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Re: Ealing, 53J entering a pedestrian zone Ruislip Rd entering Mansell Rd, Decision Refused
« Reply #6 on: »
london tribunals case number 224032215A
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Re: Ealing, 53J entering a pedestrian zone Ruislip Rd entering Mansell Rd, Decision Refused
« Reply #7 on: »
The case is not yet in the Statutory Register. I suspect the adjudicator decided that the main signs were not obscured and the advance sign is irrelevant, which is not really satisfactory, else why have an advance warning sign. Some adjudicators seem to eat lemons for breakfast. There are certainly one or two "hanging judges" among them.
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Re: Ealing, 53J entering a pedestrian zone Ruislip Rd entering Mansell Rd, Decision Refused
« Reply #8 on: »
Is this what you're looking for?

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Re: Ealing, 53J entering a pedestrian zone Ruislip Rd entering Mansell Rd, Decision Refused
« Reply #9 on: »
You should request a review in the interests of justice, because the adjudicator has not given sufficient weight to the importance of the advance sign. Clearly, when deciding on what signs to erect to convey the restriction, the council decided that an advance sign was necessary. By erecting the advance sign and then failing to keep it clear to approaching motorists, the council failed in its duty under LATOR.  Basically, why bother having advance signs if the main signs are all that is needed ?

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Re: Ealing, 53J entering a pedestrian zone Ruislip Rd entering Mansell Rd, Decision Refused
« Reply #10 on: »
Mr Harman is a difficult nut to crack on these - I had an appeal turned down by him also for obscured signage despite supplying decent pics.
Have to say I doubt a request for a review will succeed on this as the primary sign was deemed OK but worth a try as it's free to do.
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Re: Ealing, 53J entering a pedestrian zone Ruislip Rd entering Mansell Rd, Decision Refused
« Reply #11 on: »
I think Mr Harman should drive a few miles around these restricted streets for himself. If he gets a PCN then maybe he'll understand the difficulties faced by motorists !
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Re: Ealing, 53J entering a pedestrian zone Ruislip Rd entering Mansell Rd, Decision Refused
« Reply #12 on: »
I have looked at the video and there is another sign on the right as well. I see no merit in asking for a review.
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IF YOU RECEIVE A MOVING TRAFFIC PCN PLEASE READ THIS BEFORE MAKING A REPRESENTATION:

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/moving-traffic-pcns-missing-mandatory-information-the-london-local-authorities-a/msg102639/#msg102639


How do we get more people to fight their PCNs?

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/how-do-we-get-more-people-to-fight-their-pcns/msg41917/#msg41917

If you do not even make a challenge, you will surely join "The Mugged Club".

I am not omniscient. cp8759 and mrmustard are true geniuses. I know my place in the hierarchy of The Three Musketeers. 😊 "The Clinician", "The Gentleman" and "The Showman"

My e mail address for councils:

J.BOND007@H.M.S.S.c/oVAUXHALLBRIDGE/LICENSEDTOEXPOSE.SCAMS.CO.UK

Last mission accomplished:

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/southwark-to-r
Re: Ealing, 53J entering a pedestrian zone Ruislip Rd entering Mansell Rd, Decision Refused
« Reply #13 on: »
The only other tribunal I had was in 2004, and it was a completely different experiance. The adjudicator  listened to what I had to say. With this one, right from the start the adjudicator was shaking his head in disagreement before I finished speaking. His only question was 'what else?' Everything else I said was met with more head shaking. When I finished he stated that he was not satisfied, completely ignoring the crux of my argument that the sign on the approach on the main road is totally invisable to the driver. Had the sign with restriction been visable I would not have turned
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Re: Ealing, 53J entering a pedestrian zone Ruislip Rd entering Mansell Rd, Decision Refused
« Reply #14 on: »
IMO, I think there's a danger here of misunderstanding signs and their purpose.

The 'signs on approach' are the gateway signs in Mansell, set some way back from the junction- the point to which Hippocrates refers.  We're not looking at signs situated at the junction which really rely upon other warning signs but the signs in Mansell. GSV shows where they are located, although not the signs themselves, and in the opinion of this adjudicator would afford any driver ample time to see and respond: they are not positioned such that a driver couldn't possibly avoid.

In my view a request for a review must fail because the adjudicator made a finding of fact which was one which they were entitled to make. OP, it wasn't that you turned into Mansell, it's that on doing so you did not act upon the very clear gateway signage far enough away to enable you to not contravene.

In my opinion.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2024, 02:26:31 pm by H C Andersen »
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