Author Topic: Dropped Kerb/Single Yellow on Sunday, PCN issued  (Read 844 times)

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LondonTraveller84

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Dropped Kerb/Single Yellow on Sunday, PCN issued
« on: April 12, 2024, 09:18:29 pm »
All,

I received a PCN for parking on a dropped kerb with single yellow on a Sunday, which from what I believe is allowed (as the warden confirmed) unless the owner calls the council, due to obstruction of access to their enterance. Before parking I spoke to the shop owner to let him know (who we know as well) and also after receiving the PCN I spoke to him and he confirmed that had not and never calls the council.

So it seems that the CEO issued a ticket and hoping whoever it is would pay and not appeal, if appealed the council would reject either way.

The shop owner said they do this a lot and just issue tickets, so appeal and say that the owner had not called and the officier issued it and basically has not followed correcet process and lied, because when I spoke to one of the CEO's (not the oen that issued it) he said they would have been called and told to go there - would this work for an appeal or not really?


Attached photo of the PCN and area

https://tinypic.host/image/IMG-0018.DiI6m1
https://tinypic.host/image/IMG-0019.DiI0j6
https://tinypic.host/image/IMG-9956.DiIWFG


Regards

LondonTraveller

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Pastmybest

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Re: Dropped Kerb/Single Yellow on Sunday, PCN issued
« Reply #1 on: April 13, 2024, 03:22:28 pm »
For the exemption you must have permission of the resident not just that they have not complained, that bit is purely an administrative requirement for the council

LondonTraveller84

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Re: Dropped Kerb/Single Yellow on Sunday, PCN issued
« Reply #2 on: April 14, 2024, 09:55:55 pm »
So by permission, do I need a written letter or something?, I had asked the resident/owner of the side access prior to parking and he had said it was okay,.?

cp8759

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Re: Dropped Kerb/Single Yellow on Sunday, PCN issued
« Reply #3 on: April 21, 2024, 01:10:33 pm »
So by permission, do I need a written letter or something?, I had asked the resident/owner of the side access prior to parking and he had said it was okay,.?
@LondonTraveller84 can you get something in writing from the owner? A simple letter / email is enough.

It doesn't have to say that he didn't complain, it has to say that he consented to you parking there, here's some rough wording:

To whom it may concern,

Mr name is Mr (insert name), I am the owner of the shop at (address) and I confirm that on (insert date) Mr LondonTraveller84 parked across the dropped kerb of my shop, and he had my consent to do so.

Yours faithfully

Also all your photos have vanished, please use imgur.com to post images or even better, read the full posting guidance here.
« Last Edit: May 28, 2024, 12:31:51 am by cp8759 »
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor nor a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

LondonTraveller84

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Re: Dropped Kerb/Single Yellow on Sunday, PCN issued
« Reply #4 on: May 27, 2024, 09:17:52 pm »
Hi CP8759,

Please see attached their reply to the PCN rejected, partly because I had not put the letter (which I had not requested at that point.

Also see attached the original PCN and GSV location.

https://maps.app.goo.gl/pArqxti1b2diHTnT6
https://imgur.com/a/NQzzyOJ

Question is, as originally i had this posted on the other Pepipoo forums which ar enow down, someone made a point about the dropped kerb side entrance, if it should be the owner of the shop or the owner of the actually property that I need to seek permissionf from? also how would the council know who owns that side entrance?

So once I know who the letter has to be from, I can go ahead and obtain it and hopefully use that for the appeal after the Notice to owner is received.

cp8759

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Re: Dropped Kerb/Single Yellow on Sunday, PCN issued
« Reply #5 on: May 28, 2024, 12:33:47 am »
Question is, as originally i had this posted on the other Pepipoo forums which ar enow down, someone made a point about the dropped kerb side entrance, if it should be the owner of the shop or the owner of the actually property that I need to seek permissionf from? also how would the council know who owns that side entrance?
@LondonTraveller it has to be the occupier, so whoever in practice has the use of the side entrance. It doesn't matter if they own, rent or whatever.

If you can get a letter from whoever that person is, then it's easy to get the PCN cancelled.
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor nor a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

LondonTraveller84

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Re: Dropped Kerb/Single Yellow on Sunday, PCN issued
« Reply #6 on: May 28, 2024, 12:19:26 pm »
Question is, as originally i had this posted on the other Pepipoo forums which ar enow down, someone made a point about the dropped kerb side entrance, if it should be the owner of the shop or the owner of the actually property that I need to seek permissionf from? also how would the council know who owns that side entrance?
@LondonTraveller it has to be the occupier, so whoever in practice has the use of the side entrance. It doesn't matter if they own, rent or whatever.

If you can get a letter from whoever that person is, then it's easy to get the PCN cancelled.

Great wil do that, as I've spoken to the shop owner the day this happened and prior to parking and after the PCN.

Although a silly question but whats to stop anyone just making up a letter from the so-called owner, ie how can i further make it appeal proof, that the council do not question the authencitiy or say I could have made it up.

LondonTraveller84

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Re: Dropped Kerb/Single Yellow on Sunday, PCN issued
« Reply #7 on: May 28, 2024, 01:10:46 pm »
Also, should in the letter the owner mention that neither had he called the council to report a obstruction?

cp8759

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Re: Dropped Kerb/Single Yellow on Sunday, PCN issued
« Reply #8 on: May 31, 2024, 12:38:36 am »
Although a silly question but whats to stop anyone just making up a letter from the so-called owner, ie how can i further make it appeal proof, that the council do not question the authencitiy or say I could have made it up.
The council can say whatever they want but they would need evidence to undermine the letter. If for instance they sent someone round to speak to the shop owner and the person at that address appearing to be the shop owner said they'd never heard of you, that would bring the authenticity of the letter into question. But the council can't just turn up at a hearing and say "the letter is bogus", they would need evidence. As long as the letter is genuine, you don't need to worry because you can't trip up an honest man.

Also, to plead fraud they would need compelling evidence, as Newham learnt in Tahir Hamid v London Borough of Newham (2230155346, 14 September 2023). If they throw about accusations of fraud without evidence, then we go after them for costs.

There is no need for the occupier to state that he did not report any obstruction as that is completely irrelevant, but he must give his full name and address, I would also suggest giving an email address and a contact telephone number.
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor nor a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

LondonTraveller84

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Re: Dropped Kerb/Single Yellow on Sunday, PCN issued
« Reply #9 on: May 31, 2024, 12:40:18 am »
Although a silly question but whats to stop anyone just making up a letter from the so-called owner, ie how can i further make it appeal proof, that the council do not question the authencitiy or say I could have made it up.

There is no need for the occupier to state that he did not report any obstruction as that is completely irrelevant, but he must give his full name and address, I would also suggest giving an email address and a contact telephone number.

Understood, should the address be of the property in question that has access to side (ie the shop) or his actual home address?

Also realised that I actually have more than 14 days now, as I'll have to wait for the Notice to Owner before I respond.


cp8759

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Re: Dropped Kerb/Single Yellow on Sunday, PCN issued
« Reply #10 on: May 31, 2024, 12:50:36 am »
I've just realised a potential issue. That dropped kerb appears to be connected to 319D High St N, though it seems the shop might have a side-door to the off-street parking which the dropped kerb leads to.

Would you be able to get a letter from the occupier of 319D High St N?
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor nor a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

LondonTraveller84

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Re: Dropped Kerb/Single Yellow on Sunday, PCN issued
« Reply #11 on: June 28, 2024, 12:23:02 pm »
Would you be able to get a letter from the occupier of 319D High St N?

I can try, although they are not the owners of that side enterance, ie the shop is who uses the accesss and owns is in the front, they've sublet part of the side/back garden out to tenants it seems. I guess no benefit in getting a letter from both to cover myself fully?

Also I have received the NTO, so am ready to now submit a formal appeal to the NTO and fingers crossed.



John U.K.

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Re: Dropped Kerb/Single Yellow on Sunday, PCN issued
« Reply #12 on: June 28, 2024, 01:53:21 pm »
Quote
so am ready to now submit a formal appeal

Post the NtO (all sides) and your draft representation here for comment before submitting.
Agree Agree x 1 View List

cp8759

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Re: Dropped Kerb/Single Yellow on Sunday, PCN issued
« Reply #13 on: June 30, 2024, 03:21:23 pm »
I can try, although they are not the owners of that side enterance, ie the shop is who uses the accesss and owns is in the front, they've sublet part of the side/back garden out to tenants it seems. I guess no benefit in getting a letter from both to cover myself fully?
On the contrary, if it's a shared drive the exemption does not apply. While there is no legal definition of what a shared drive is, I would not send the council two letters from two different parties. The exemption only applies to residential premises, so you really need a letter from the occupiers of the house.
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor nor a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

LondonTraveller84

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Re: Dropped Kerb/Single Yellow on Sunday, PCN issued
« Reply #14 on: July 03, 2024, 11:38:16 pm »
Would you be able to get a letter from the occupier of 319D High St N?

Where did you see 319D? I only see 319A and 57 on the two access doors near the dropped kerb?

Agree I would only send it from one, unless I get a letter from shop saying the own the drive and gave permission and other from 319D/A or 57 saying they don't own the drive to cover all basis or is that an overkill?

I know from speaking to the owner of the shop, it's his enterance and he uses it, so surely it makes sense to get the letter from him, irrespective if there is another side access 319D etc (subleased/rented) next the drop kerb entrance, as legally his only rented the room not the drop kerb enterance??

See attached the NTO - https://imgur.com/a/f8utrhT