Author Topic: Double PCN - Contravention 12 Physical residents parking permit not on display - Harrow Council  (Read 1937 times)

0 Members and 162 Guests are viewing this topic.

Hi all,

1. Recently moved and registered for a residents parking permit which was approved last month.

2. Received permit letter in post (below), letter only had a few lines with no instructions re. displaying permit. (Now displaying permit to avoid further PCN fun ;D)



3. Since moving in & parking in resident only bays I have seen CEOs check my car reg on multiple occasions using a handheld device and go about their day -- so assumed displaying physical permit was not necessary as permit (virtual?) was clearly being looked up/validated by CEO.

4. Issued two PCNs, 18th July and 19th July. Appealed both on same grounds and had earlier one cancelled, latter appeal was rejected.

- 18th July PCN




- 19th July PCN




- PCN challenge appeal

I very much regret not posting here prior to submitting this, submitted the same for both PCNs.



- Appeal decision letters

18th July



19th July




Additional information:

- Car mugshot pics:









- Online parking permit terms found on the councils website do mention displaying a permit (highlighted)



- PCN text states "PARKED IN A RESIDENTS' OR SHARED USE PARKING PLACE OR ZONE WITHOUT A VALID VIRTUAL PERMIT OR CLEARLY DISPLAYING A VALID PHYSICAL PERMIT OR VOUCHER OR PAY AND DISPLAY TICKET ISSUED FOR THAT PLACE WHERE REQUIRED, OR WITHOUT PAYMENT OF THE PARKING CHARGE"

Does a residents permit qualify as a valid virtual permit?

- Spoke with parking control on the phone who said instructions for 'newer' residents permits were online and no longer included in the letter. Likely not useful but here is the letter provided with visitor permits which has clear instructions



Wondering if I should cough up and pay off the outstanding ticket. Any guidance is greatly appreciated.

Edit: Including PCN/VRM as per forum guidance

« Last Edit: July 24, 2024, 09:08:04 pm by pelicancricket »

Share on Bluesky Share on Facebook


The contravention description on the PCN is a standard one, used by all London councils. That is why it refers to virtual and physical permits. However, not all London councils operate a virtual permit system.

What puzzles me, however, is that one PCN was cancelled, and one not. When you submitted representations, did you not link the two PCNs as both were related to your misunderstanding of the council scheme. I think I would be tempted to wait for the NtO and submit a formal representation, but this time mentioning that actually two PCNs had been issued because of your misunderstanding of the scheme, and it therefore seems unfair that one PCN was cancelled, and the other one not.  They will probably refuse and re-offer the discount, but at least you will have tried. I don't think I would take the matter to London Tribunals unless the discount is not re-offered, because your case is not all that strong, and adjudicators can only decide on law, not mitigation.

Many thanks for the reply @Incandescent


Quote
What puzzles me, however, is that one PCN was cancelled, and one not. When you submitted representations, did you not link the two PCNs as both were related to your misunderstanding of the council scheme.
​

I stupidly copied and pasted the same appeal text for both without mentioning that two had been issued. One would hope that the person responsible would take this into consideration for both PCN appeals :(


Quote
I think I would be tempted to wait for the NtO and submit a formal representation, but this time mentioning that actually two PCNs had been issued because of your misunderstanding of the scheme, and it therefore seems unfair that one PCN was cancelled, and the other one not.  They will probably refuse and re-offer the discount, but at least you will have tried. I don't think I would take the matter to London Tribunals unless the discount is not re-offered, because your case is not all that strong, and adjudicators can only decide on law, not mitigation.

If I can evidence my claim of CEOs arbitrarily applying the law relating to enforcement action through the use of subject access requests (or similar) would it be worthwhile taking it to the tribunals? Ideally I'd like to get the CEO's handheld device lookup record for my VRM, there should be multiple date/time entries as I hadn't been displaying the physical permit until a few days ago.


After some Google searching I found two documents:

1. 'Harrow Parking Management and Enforcement Strategy 2019' which has a section on virtual permits:



2. Subject: Parking Review – Introduction of Virtual Parking Permits



Can the above two documents be considered as confirmation that Harrow Council do indeed have virtual permits for resident parking? If so, could I potentially refute the claim of not having valid virtual permit as per the PCN text?

Thanks in advance for any pointers.
« Last Edit: July 25, 2024, 12:09:26 am by pelicancricket »

If you're happy to do your "homework" like you are clearly capable of, then why not test it all out at London Tribunals ! Yes, have a go, but remember the full PCN penalty is in play, If that's OK for you, then good luck with your appeal. Howeveer, first you must submit reps against the Nto, as it is only when formal reps against an NtO are refused, that you can register an appeal at LT.
Agree Agree x 1 View List

SAR submitted today requesting VRM lookups, unlikely they turn it around before I receive my NtO.

Regarding making formal representation, should I provide a basic argument at this stage with a view to 'expand' once escalated to the tribunals?

Hi all,

I am yet to receive my notice to owner (NtO) for the ticket that was not cancelled.

As a reminder contravention occurred 19/07/24, appeal rejected 22/07/2024.



Should I chase for NtO to be issued/enquire if it's gone missing in post or just wait?

Thanks in advance.

They have up to 6 months to serve an NtO, but anything over 3 months is getting into unfairness territory. Here is the relevant clause in the Statutory Guidance 2022

Quote
The NtO may be issued 28 days after serving the penalty charge, and we expect authorities to send them within 56 days. The ultimate time limit, in exceptional circumstances, is 6 months from the ‘relevant date’. There should be a very good reason for waiting that long to serve an NtO. The regulations set out the information that the NtO must  give.

Hi all,

Received NtO a while back but only just getting around to dealing with it.














I believe I have 28 days from the date of the notice (06/09/2024) which is Friday 04/10/2024. Will be sending my appeal response signed for just to be safe.

I should add this additional picture which I saw when on a walk which mentions being issued with a PCN if the permit is not fully displayed





Versus the letter I was sent





Could I use this as a basis for my NTO appeal? Alternatively the continuous contravention may apply here, and seeing as the initial PCN was cancelled it follows (if thinking rationally) that this PCN should have been too.

Thanks for any advice in advance!

Best to submit your reps on-line. It costs nothing and you get an immediate response of their receipt.

Thanks - wasn't aware I could submit reps online.

Would you advise as to which argument I should expand on for the reps? I've read it's common for the council to flat out reject them, and that it's best to not show your hand till the tribunal stage.

Cheers.

You have to be careful, because if you ambush the council at an adjudication, the adjudicator will not look kindly on it.

For some strange reason you've blanked all the dates on the permit letter.

Strictly speaking it's not a continuous contravention but they say there are no grounds to cancel when they did find grounds for the first one.

I would write a polite representation about your misunderstanding, noting the cancellation of the first and of course that you had a valid permit.

Harrow is a bit behind the times but I must say I'm surprised you didn't think a paper permit wasn't sent for fun...


For some strange reason you've blanked all the dates on the permit letter.

Strictly speaking it's not a continuous contravention but they say there are no grounds to cancel when they did find grounds for the first one.

I would write a polite representation about your misunderstanding, noting the cancellation of the first and of course that you had a valid permit.

Harrow is a bit behind the times but I must say I'm surprised you didn't think a paper permit wasn't sent for fun...




Didn't respond to your reply earlier. Thanks for the advice, here's what I wrote (1000 char limit didn't help):





Also attached the accompanying permit letter sent to another resident (posted earlier in this thread) along with the one I was sent.

And in return I received this from the council:









Haven't yet heard back from my subject access request from the council where I was hoping to prove that CEOs were looking up my permit digitally and not issuing PCNs.. Not sure if there's any point in chasing if others think my case is not worth taking forward - any thoughts?

@pelicancricket well as the discount is not on offer you might as well appeal, as you can't end up any worse off and you might win. I'll drop you a PM in case you'd like me to represent you.
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order