3. Council PCN with partially obscured signage & unclear bay markings
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Author Topic: Council PCN with partially obscured signage & unclear bay markings  (Read 3495 times)

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Re: Council PCN with partially obscured signage & unclear bay markings
« Reply #15 on: »
Quote from: cp8759 on September 24, 2023, 03:56:05 pm
I admire your optimism, but it doesn't really work like that. You should assume the council will reject anything you say and we'll have to wait for the notice to owner, make representations again, the council will reject them again, and then we'll have to appeal to the Traffic Penalty Tribunal. It's only at the tribunal stage that you get a fair hearing.

I should've known better  ::)

The council have responded today rejecting the challenge. Shall I post the full PDF here (with personal information redacted) or do you just need specific information from the document?

Ta, Dave :)
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Re: Council PCN with partially obscured signage & unclear bay markings
« Reply #16 on: »
Post all sides. Only redact name & address.
Rep as per 22nd.Sept post?
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Re: Council PCN with partially obscured signage & unclear bay markings
« Reply #17 on: »
Quote from: John U.K. on October 03, 2023, 02:33:04 pm
Post all sides. Only redact name & address.
Rep as per 22nd.Sept post?

Thanks, John. Yes that's correct, the rep is the one you see on the post from the 22nd.

Attaching the PDF here.

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Re: Council PCN with partially obscured signage & unclear bay markings
« Reply #18 on: »
It's just an informal rejection.

If you wait for the notice to owner, in almost all instances the council will reoffer the discount as long as you make representations within 14 days. Are you the registered keeper and do you have the V5C? If so, is the address up to date?
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
Re: Council PCN with partially obscured signage & unclear bay markings
« Reply #19 on: »
Quote from: cp8759 on October 05, 2023, 07:22:10 pm
It's just an informal rejection.

If you wait for the notice to owner, in almost all instances the council will reoffer the discount as long as you make representations within 14 days. Are you the registered keeper and do you have the V5C? If so, is the address up to date?

Yep, she is the registered keeper, has the V5C and the address is up to date. We shall wait for that to come through. Is there anything we should be doing in the mean time, or is it just a waiting game now?
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Re: Council PCN with partially obscured signage & unclear bay markings
« Reply #20 on: »
Just wait for the notice to owner and post it on here when you get it.
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
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Re: Council PCN with partially obscured signage & unclear bay markings
« Reply #21 on: »
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
Re: Council PCN with partially obscured signage & unclear bay markings
« Reply #22 on: »
We've finally received the NTO which I've attached below. We received this yesterday (20th Nov), however the front page of the letter claims they sent this on the 9th ???

Only name / address have been redacted. Thanks again for your assistance with this.

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Re: Council PCN with partially obscured signage & unclear bay markings
« Reply #23 on: »
Quote from: cp8759 on October 10, 2023, 05:14:09 pm
For later, The Parking Places and Controlled Parking Zone (Liverpool) Order 2009.

Sorry, I've just noticed this post. Unsure what I need to do with this I'm afraid
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Re: Council PCN with partially obscured signage & unclear bay markings
« Reply #24 on: »
It's there in case we need it as part of representations and an appeal. As it says, "for later".
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Re: Council PCN with partially obscured signage & unclear bay markings
« Reply #25 on: »
The relevant entry in the TRO is item 173C on page 188:

All that part of the south westerly side of Seel Street which is bounded on the south west by so much of the edge of the carriageway of that highway as extends from a point 11.5 metres north west of its junction with Back Colquitt Street in a north westerly direction for a distance of 50 metres, all measured along the said road which has a width throughout of 2 metres.

I don't think it's marked 100% correctly, but as far as I can see your car was within the designated taxi rank. Is there any meaningful mitigation you could put forwards?

One possible angle to pursue on appeal is that the evidence from the council doesn't suffice to show a contravention, but you don't want to point that out now as it would give them a chance to gather further evidence.
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
Re: Council PCN with partially obscured signage & unclear bay markings
« Reply #26 on: »
Quote from: cp8759 on November 24, 2023, 11:53:30 pm

I don't think it's marked 100% correctly, but as far as I can see your car was within the designated taxi rank. Is there any meaningful mitigation you could put forwards?

One possible angle to pursue on appeal is that the evidence from the council doesn't suffice to show a contravention, but you don't want to point that out now as it would give them a chance to gather further evidence.

Thanks for coming back to me cp, really appreciate your assistance.

I'm unsure what we could put forward in terms of mitigation, other than the fact that there were roadworks going on with conflicting one way signs, stickers & other debris covering parts of the sign and poor lighting at the time of night making the sign difficult to see. But I'm unsure how much impact this would have. The bay markings also seem very confusing, and the yellow line was rather worn out and broken.

Ta, Dave



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Re: Council PCN with partially obscured signage & unclear bay markings
« Reply #27 on: »
I was thinking more of mitigation not connected to the contravention, anything from a recent bereavement, medical issues, a pet being run over or whatever else. It might be that there is nothing at all, but some people don't realise that such extraneous factors amount to mitigation, hence why we ask.
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
Re: Council PCN with partially obscured signage & unclear bay markings
« Reply #28 on: »
I've asked her, and all that she can offer is that she was under serious stress at her day job, and that it was her first shift of her new evening job which is why she was in the city centre, and finally that the roadworks were seriously confusing as she rarely drives in the centre.
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Re: Council PCN with partially obscured signage & unclear bay markings
« Reply #29 on: »
Quote from: davec on November 27, 2023, 10:02:31 pm
I've asked her, and all that she can offer is that she was under serious stress at her day job, and that it was her first shift of her new evening job which is why she was in the city centre, and finally that the roadworks were seriously confusing as she rarely drives in the centre.
Does she have any documentary evidence she can use to confirm this? Either something from her day job, or maybe something confirming it was her first shift at her evening job?
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
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