Author Topic: contravention 31J - yellow box - car stalled  (Read 941 times)

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Re: contravention 31J - yellow box - car stalled
« Reply #15 on: »
I would focus on the incursion of vehicles from the left.

As a learner driver I was driving cautiously, including leaving an extended gap between myself and the car ahead. When that car approached and exited the junction it was clear that it would leave sufficient room for me to enter and exit without issue. Unfortunately, two vehicles came from the left, the first one a car which took my exit space, although still in motion, and next came a GIG motorcyclist which caused me to stop. I submit that both were required to cede priority to me by virtue of the road markings at this junction*, something which is hammered home to me by my instructor.

I find it hard to understand that the law is holding me liable for the unlawful actions of other motorists.


* - Give way marking
7.  The requirements conveyed to vehicular traffic on roads by a road marking provided for at item 3 of the sign table in Part 6 of this Schedule [which applies to traffic in the side road] are—

(a)except as provided in paragraphs (b) to (d), that no vehicle may proceed past the transverse line which is the nearer to the major road into that road in a manner or at a time likely to endanger the driver of, or any passenger in, a vehicle on the major road or to cause the driver of such a vehicle to change its speed or course in order to avoid an accident;

Re: contravention 31J - yellow box - car stalled
« Reply #16 on: »
Had to take son to cricket training. Will have something for you in the next hour...

Re: contravention 31J - yellow box - car stalled
« Reply #17 on: »
Ok
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Re: contravention 31J - yellow box - car stalled
« Reply #18 on: »
Draft for (brief) consideration and submission.  I wasn't sure if you are male or female so please correct the various references  to he/her and son/daughter as applicable before submission.

Edit - I've updated the male/female references following your confirmation

Dear Croydon,

Re PCN CR22642605

I would like to submit representations against this PCN on the grounds that the contravention did not occur.

First and foremost, I should state that while I am the owner and registered keeper of this vehicle, I was not the driver at the time this contravention is alleged to have occurred. As I was not present I have mostly had to rely on the video evidence provided to formulate this response. The driver was my daughter who only recently passed her driving test and is thus a relatively inexperienced motorist.

A box junction contravention occurs if (and only if) a person causes a vehicle to enter the box junction so that the vehicle has to stop within the box junction due to the presence of stationary vehicles. The inclusion of the words "has to" is important and means that merely stopping in a box junction isn't necessarily a contravention; rather the stop has to have been necessary in the context of the traffic conditions at the time and the manner in which the vehicle entered the box junction. Having reviewed the video evidence, I do not believe such a contravention has occurred.

What can be seen in the footage is that the vehicle slows to a crawl on its approach to the box junction.  As the exit road was not clear, best practice would have been for the driver to stop at the entrance to the box junction (and I have reminded my daughter about this).  Instead she entered at this very slow pace which, possibly by luck more than judgement, if maintained would have been sufficiently slow that she would have been able to cross without having to stop in the box junction because the red vehicle on the other side moves on only a few seconds afterwards. The box junction length is 10.2 metres and the time between entry and the red car moving off is 8 seconds.  As such an average speed while passing through the box junction of just under 3 miles per hour (i.e. walking pace) would have meant no stop was necessary.

Unfortunately, in spite of my vehicle having the right of way, just as it entered the box junction a motorcycle waiting in the side road moved out forcing my vehicle to stop. The motorcycle was legally obliged to give way to my vehicle and consequently stopping in this circumstance is no fault of the driver of my vehicle. Once the motorcycle cleared the junction, unfortunately my daughter stalled the car causing a delay to leaving the box junction, but as the contravention is effectively a test of judgement at the point of entry, and by this time the exit is completely clear, this is of no consequence.

On this basis, I trust you will agree that there has been no technical breach of the box junction rules and cancel the PCN.

Yours faithfully,
« Last Edit: June 23, 2025, 10:11:10 pm by MrChips »

Re: contravention 31J - yellow box - car stalled
« Reply #19 on: »
Sorry this has come through so late.  Don't worry too much about the contents as Croydon will reject it anyway.  Key thing is to submit before midnight tonight.

Make sure it's sent as if from your father.

Re: contravention 31J - yellow box - car stalled
« Reply #20 on: »
22 y old female

Re: contravention 31J - yellow box - car stalled
« Reply #21 on: »
thank you ever soooo much

Re: contravention 31J - yellow box - car stalled
« Reply #22 on: »
Come back with the rejection notice!
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Re: contravention 31J - yellow box - car stalled
« Reply #23 on: »
I'm confused. The 14 days end of period of my pcn never spired and I'm still allowed to pay the reduced amount of £80.

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Re: contravention 31J - yellow box - car stalled
« Reply #24 on: »
When and how did you submit your reps?

The statutory discount period is as has been posted. The council may at their discretion extend the discount e.g. if reps are submitted within the statutory period etc.

Re: contravention 31J - yellow box - car stalled
« Reply #25 on: »
hi everyone,


Bad news  :(  :(  :(




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Re: contravention 31J - yellow box - car stalled
« Reply #26 on: »
"I am unable to cancel the PCN on this occasion" - what happened - did they suffer a terminal lack of discretion on this occasion?

Re: contravention 31J - yellow box - car stalled
« Reply #27 on: »
Not unexpected rejection from Croydon.

They have reoffered the discount if you pay by 28 July (14 days beginning with date of service which is deemed to be 15 July).

Saying they are unable to cancel the PCN is technically fettering their discretion.  They also say on page 2 that if you pay the discounted PCN you will have lost the right to appeal to the tribunal.  I'm pretty sure that's incorrect (or at least I recall Mr Mustard saying that so long as you receive a notice of rejection you can still appeal even after paying the discount). I do not know how much (if at all) these points would add weight to your case as technical arguments.

On the video itself it's a tricky one to say what your odds of success would be.  The rejection letter tells you at point of entry you need to ensure you can cross without stopping.  Well, that was precisely your argument, that you could have crossed without stopping going at the speed you were going - but for a motorcycle coming from the side when you had not given way and forcing you to stop after (or simultaneous with) your entry into the box.

See what others think - personally I'd probably try and take this to the tribunal as I think there is at least a 50% chance of success, but it will also depend on how risk averse you are and how much you (or your father!) can afford to risk the extra £80.


Re: contravention 31J - yellow box - car stalled
« Reply #28 on: »
Looking at the position as you entered (as if everything was stationary) which the adjudicator probably will (as I did a yellow box case with an adjudicator yesterday who kept slowly rolling through the same few seconds to be sure of his opinion and an actual stop) I don't think you stand any chance of winning at the tribunal. You were never going to clear the box. 50% off and learn from this. If in doubt, stuff the traffic behind, I'm stopping at the edge of the box until my exit is guaranteed.

I help you pro bono (for free). I now ask that a £40 donation is made to the North London Hospice before I take over your case. I have an 85% success rate across 2,000 PCNs but some PCNs can't be beaten and I will tell you if your case looks hopeless before asking you to donate.

Re: contravention 31J - yellow box - car stalled
« Reply #29 on: »
The letter is  dated 11/07 that makes tomorrow the last day to pay. I thought I would have chance to win. Do you think other gurus will come with different ideas to go tribunal, e.g. camera last proof check for accuracy or the person who check the recordings or other ideas that maybe still a chance. £80 is really heavy.