Author Topic: Code 52m Maze Hill SE10 / Tom Smith Cl SE10 - Failing to comply with a prohibition on certain types of vehicles  (Read 701 times)

0 Members and 603 Guests are viewing this topic.

Received a PCN for getting entering into Maze Hill SE10 / Tom Smith Cl SE10. There is a sign on the A206 road about 50 yards before the right turn however, that sign does not show any timing. Please see attached photo. Restriction is lifted at 19:00 and the PCN I received is showing time of 18:58:59. I also checked on google maps and there is no sign appearing in the maps which means that sign has been active recently.  Do you think I can appeal on the ground that there should at least be a grace period of 5-10 minutes. To be honest, clock in my car was showing 19:00 and cross it assuming I should be fine. Any help would be much appreciated, I need to appeal as today is the last day.

Please see attached PCN and evidence provided by the Greenwich council



[ Guests cannot view attachments ]

Share on Bluesky Share on Facebook


I would appreciate any response here please. Just an added information. Small advanced sign post on A206 road just before the right turn into Maze Hill road is literally before the traffic light and has no time restriction mentioned. Sign is also broken. In my view at this stage it is impossible to focus on the sign on the left hand side when the traffic ahead is slowing down to stop at the traffic light and this sign could easily be missed. Once you enter the Maze Hill road, there is no warning sign at the entrance of the road and first time the sign appears is actual restricted sign and there is no side road to avoid it from entering the Maze Hill road till the actual restricted sign post. See attached photo of advanced sign. Would appreciate views if the grounds are sufficient to over turn the PCN

[ Guests cannot view attachments ]

[ Guests cannot view attachments ]

The signs are clear here. Did you check your clock before you drove through?

Greenwich seems to mess up a lot of tribunal appeals so it may be worth having a go at this.

Also our member Hippo may have other info. 

I did and my clock was clearly showing past 19:00 hence I crossed it.

The PCN time is 18:59 so could just say it falls within triviality - what we call de minimis - as that time could be one second before 19:00 (although you went through at 18:59:00...)


 I agree with Stamfordman, submit reps on the basis of de minimis. However, they will inevitably reject, so you would need to stand your ground and take them to London Tribunals. This means taking the double-or-quits gamble, because the discount option is not available at LT.

There is notable similar case (which I cannot recall in detail :(  - but someone here may well recall it) involving de minimis timings, where the Adjudicator in allowing an appeal said something to the effect of not being able to expect cars to be fitted with atomic clocks.

To be honest, clock in my car was showing 19:00 and cross it assuming I should be fine.

Exactly. So pl don't dance around this with references to non-statutory warning signs etc.

I knew the restriction. I checked my car clock which showed 7pm hence I drove through. I suppose I have to accept that the council's clock, which reads to the second and is no doubt calibrated by reference to an atomic clock or space satellite, showed that I crossed 1 minute before the prohibition ceased.

If the Royal Borough of Greenwich thinks that a penalty of up to £160 is a proportionate and proper response to my events then they need to take a long look at themselves. (optional)

The principle of de minimis clearly applies, demanding is penalty is neither fair nor proportionate and therefore a penalty is not owed.

Atomic clock case but no need to cite it in reps. We have other such cases.

-------

218015398A

This PCN was issued for the alleged contravention of being stopped in a restricted area outside a school when prohibited. The alleged contravention occurred in Clovelly Avenue at 4.14pm on 8 March 2018.

I have looked at the CCTV footage and also the site images submitted by the Council. These show that Mr Byanouni's vehicle was stopped on entrance markings in front of Colindale Primary School. They also show that there is a sign at the location warning motorists that there is no stopping on the entrance markings between 2.45pm and 4.15pm Mondays to Fridays.

Mr Byanouni appeals because he says that he stopped to pick up his children from school. He says that he is well aware of the restrictions and that the clock in his car showed the time of 4.15pm. The Council says that its clock is calibrated according to the Atomic Clock, ensuring 100% accuracy. The CCTV timing shows the vehicle stopping at 4:14:18.

I accept the evidence of Mr Byanouni that the clock in his car showed the time of 4.15pm. I find that the alleged contravention did not occur. There must be some application of common sense. Motorists cannot all be expected to wear time pieces calibrated to the exact second according to the Atomic Clock. A motorist reading an ordinary watch will not be able to know the time calculated to the exact second.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2025, 12:12:39 am by stamfordman »

Atomic clock case but no need to care it in reps. We have other such cases.

-------

218015398A

This PCN was issued for the alleged contravention of being stopped in a restricted area outside a school when prohibited. The alleged contravention occurred in Clovelly Avenue at 4.14pm on 8 March 2018.

I have looked at the CCTV footage and also the site images submitted by the Council. These show that Mr Byanouni's vehicle was stopped on entrance markings in front of Colindale Primary School. They also show that there is a sign at the location warning motorists that there is no stopping on the entrance markings between 2.45pm and 4.15pm Mondays to Fridays.

Mr Byanouni appeals because he says that he stopped to pick up his children from school. He says that he is well aware of the restrictions and that the clock in his car showed the time of 4.15pm. The Council says that its clock is calibrated according to the Atomic Clock, ensuring 100% accuracy. The CCTV timing shows the vehicle stopping at 4:14:18.

I accept the evidence of Mr Byanouni that the clock in his car showed the time of 4.15pm. I find that the alleged contravention did not occur. There must be some application of common sense. Motorists cannot all be expected to wear time pieces calibrated to the exact second according to the Atomic Clock. A motorist reading an ordinary watch will not be able to know the time calculated to the exact second.
The Citizen watch on my wrist is synchronised with the Frankfurt time signal every day, and my old Casio watch with the UK time signal which used to be transmitteed from Rugby, but is now up north somewhere. This morning, I looked at them both, and there is about 1/2 second between them. However, I don't think I should look at a wristwatch when I approach a restriction sign with times on it ! As far as I know, there are no cars on sale that use radio signals to keep the car clock to time. Most car clocks can keep fairly good time, but can gain or lose, and one has to ocasionally correct the time before driving off.
These PCNs that have a time very close to the restriction time are just venal money-grubbing highway robbery. I have a book of railway cartoons, and one of them is a mid-Victorian train with a railway director sitting on the buffer beam with Dick Turpin looking on and saying " Ah, doing a bit in my line, eh" ? To which the railway director replies, "you were hanged, but we rob by Act of Parliament".
Funny Funny x 1 View List

My advice where there's a restriction on the hour is to wait for the BBC pips on radio 4. Or where there's a change of programme on the half-hour. You'd certainly do this for the London congestion charge plus add a bit more as I don't think we see de minimis cases with this.