3. Electric Parking Bay or NOT an Electric Parking Bay?
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Electric Parking Bay or NOT an Electric Parking Bay?
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Just received a PCN from Leeds City Council for parking in a Council run car park that I use most days.


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As you can see it is a bay next to the EV charging bays, or at least that's what I thought.  You can just see the "ONLY" road markings, which do include the bay I'm parked in.  However, it looks different from the rear of the car:

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As you can see there is NO charging point for that last car parking spot and this is why I parked in that bay, also because it is next to the EV charging bays, which rarely get used.

The charging point nearest my bay provides a charging point for the two bays next to the one I have parked in.  So, if all 3 bays were used by EV's, only 2 of the EV's would be able to charge.  Does this mean the 3rd EV (the one parked in the end bay like my car) would be fined for parking in an EV charging bay, but not charging?

Is the bay I'm parked in an EV charging bay or not?  The faded white lines on the road suggest it is, but the fact there isn't a charging point for that bay, suggests it isn't!

Maybe when Leeds City Council removed the old charging point, they should have also repainted the road signage?

What are your thoughts?

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Re: Electric Parking Bay or NOT an Electric Parking Bay?
« Reply #1 on: »
Well, with no charger for the bay and it being common practice to ban parking in an EV bay when not charging they seem likely they have created a bay that can't be used at all... but I'm getting ahead of myself. We're currently flying blind because we cant see the PCN, the sign with the car park's terms and conditions and we don't have the location so we can look up the order that governs the car park, so showing all of those would be a good start.
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Re: Electric Parking Bay or NOT an Electric Parking Bay?
« Reply #2 on: »
Hi, thanks for responding to my post.

The PCN number is LS22451741 and the car park is Crossley Street, Wetherby, West Yorkshire.  What3words shows the exact location:  garages.crackled.cobras

I didn't take photos of the signs etc, but will attach those shown as evidence on the PCN.

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The car park allows free parking for upto 2 hours.

The notice states:  "71 Parked in an electric vehicles charging place during restricted hours without charging".

While I was taking photos, a woman approached me to say she had also received a PCN for parking in the same parking spot.  She drove an EV and paid the parking fine as she wasn't charging her EV.

As you, say, LCC have come up with a way to make some money out of a parking spot that has dubious signage by fining any car that parks in it!

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« Last Edit: May 16, 2024, 07:19:52 pm by milleniumaire »
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Re: Electric Parking Bay or NOT an Electric Parking Bay?
« Reply #3 on: »
@milleniumaire so here: https://maps.app.goo.gl/FK4TCU6eDt4FNLW56 (we don't use what3words as it's rubbish).

I don't know what this is https://maps.app.goo.gl/pVbRQMreVFhdcfG29 but maybe at some point where was a charging machine there?

Also would you be able to get us an updated photo of the main tariff board showing the terms and conditions of parking here https://maps.app.goo.gl/Kn716MagQVqk8pdt5 ? If the tariff board doesn't mention that a PCN could be issued for parking in an EV bay without charging, then the signs and markings are only advisory and cannot be enforced.

Lastly please read the guidance here and post up the actual PCN, both sides in full please.

In the meantime I'll get hold of the parking places order.
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
Re: Electric Parking Bay or NOT an Electric Parking Bay?
« Reply #4 on: »
Quote from: cp8759 on May 20, 2024, 09:39:49 pm
I don't know what this is https://maps.app.goo.gl/pVbRQMreVFhdcfG29 but maybe at some point where was a charging machine there?

That is a charging machine, those are 3x 3-pin plug sockets with waterproof covers. Sometimes these low power 3-pin socket chargers (colloquially known as 'granny chargers') are provided free while the high power ones that deliver more juice are paid for. If it was still there then the Council could reasonably argue that machine serves 3 bays, but it doesn't appear in the OP's photos - perhaps the Council thought better of giving out free electricity?
« Last Edit: May 20, 2024, 11:53:57 pm by Grant Urismo »
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Re: Electric Parking Bay or NOT an Electric Parking Bay?
« Reply #5 on: »
Quote from: cp8759 on May 20, 2024, 09:39:49 pm
@milleniumaire so here: https://maps.app.goo.gl/FK4TCU6eDt4FNLW56 (we don't use what3words as it's rubbish).

I don't know what this is https://maps.app.goo.gl/pVbRQMreVFhdcfG29 but maybe at some point where was a charging machine there?

Also would you be able to get us an updated photo of the main tariff board showing the terms and conditions of parking here https://maps.app.goo.gl/Kn716MagQVqk8pdt5 ? If the tariff board doesn't mention that a PCN could be issued for parking in an EV bay without charging, then the signs and markings are only advisory and cannot be enforced.

Lastly please read the guidance here and post up the actual PCN, both sides in full please.

In the meantime I'll get hold of the parking places order.

I can confirm there used to be a charger at the back of that parking space, but it was removed a long time ago and only a cement pad remains now as can just about be seen in my photo of the rear of the car.  The only indication it used to be a charging bay (apart from the cement pad, which is surrounded by overgrown grass) is the faded road marking, which still includes that bay.

I have checked the signage and there is nothing more in addition to the two photos I included earlier, which were taken by the enforcement officer that ticketed the car.

I've been monitoring this parking spot for the last week or so and every day I see a different car parked in it, even when there are plenty of other parking spaces.  The cars may be petrol/diesel or EV's.  It is clear to me that I'm not the only person who sees this as a generic parking spot and not a charging bay.

I have attached photos of the front and rear of the PCN that was issued.



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Re: Electric Parking Bay or NOT an Electric Parking Bay?
« Reply #6 on: »
Council photos:











Draft reps:

Dear Liverpool City Council,

I challenge liability on the ground that the alleged contravention did not occur and indeed, could not possibly occur. The starting point is that I was not parked in an electric charging bay, there is no charger associated with that particular bay. It is impossible to charge an electric vehicle in this bay because the council has failed to provide a charger.

As if that were not enough, there is no tariff board to bring the terms and conditions of parking to the attention of motorists, as such there is nothing to warn motorists that the off-street parking places order requires vehicles parking in EV charging bays to be plugged in and charging. In the absence of any reference to the off-street parking places order, there is no way to know which signs are mandatory and which signs are merely advisory.

In the circumstances the penalty charge must be cancelled.

Yours faithfully,


Send this online and keep a screenshot of the confirmation page. Don't expect them to roll over straight away, but ultimately I don't see how they could hope to enforce this. I certainly can't see any TPT adjudicator putting up with this sort of nonsense from LCC.
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
Re: Electric Parking Bay or NOT an Electric Parking Bay?
« Reply #7 on: »
Thanks for your help.  I have challenged the PCN.  Now I just have to wait and see what happens.
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Re: Electric Parking Bay or NOT an Electric Parking Bay?
« Reply #8 on: »
I have now received a reply from Leeds City Council regarding my challenge of the PCN.  The letter states:


Nature of Contravention: 71 Parked in an electric vehicles charging place

Thank you for your email in regard to the above PCN.

The Civil Enforcement Officer (CEO) issued the PCN because your vehicle was parked in an electric vehicles charging bay without being on charge. Only vehicles parked in the bay with a view to charging are permitted to park within the bays.

Whilst you are of the opinion there is no charging point, it has been removed. There is a charging point located at the rear of the vehicle, the charging point has extra long hoses and therefore able to reach vehicles parked within the bay to which your vehicle was parked. As you are not parked in the bay with a view to charging your vehicle, than an alternative legal place to park should have been sought.

I am prepared to cancel the PCN on this occasion. You should hear no more about this matter but the Parking Services department may not be able to cancel future PCNs issued in similar situations.

What they are saying about the charging point located at the rear of the vehicle doesn't make sense to me.  I could understand an extra long hose being used to connect to the charger that serves the two bays adjacent the bay without the charger and they seem to be suggested that 3 cars could be charged simultaneously from a single charger!  I'm not convinced and will investigate the next time I park nearby.

So, a result for me, however it would appear that Leeds City Council still believe the parking bay is a legitimate EV parking bay despite no charger being installed.

Thanks for your help in challenging this PCN.
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Re: Electric Parking Bay or NOT an Electric Parking Bay?
« Reply #9 on: »
Quote from: milleniumaire on June 07, 2024, 04:40:14 pm
I could understand an extra long hose being used to connect to the charger that serves the two bays adjacent the bay without the charger and they seem to be suggested that 3 cars could be charged simultaneously from a single charger!  I'm not convinced and will investigate the next time I park nearby.
Do let us know what you find, I'd be quite interested to know if that charger can charge 3 cars.
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
Re: Electric Parking Bay or NOT an Electric Parking Bay?
« Reply #10 on: »
Quote from: cp8759 on June 10, 2024, 02:18:08 am
Do let us know what you find, I'd be quite interested to know if that charger can charge 3 cars.

Today I had a look at the Blink charger that provides the charge point for the two parking bays adjacent to the bay I was parked in (3rd bay) and noted the following:

1. It has TWO connection points; one on each side.  There is not a THIRD point so it is NOT possible for 3 cars to be charged simultaneously.
2. There are no cables, obviously the EV owner must supply their own cable and plug it in to both the charging point and the EV.

So, the comments from Leeds City Council are complete tosh:

"There is a charging point located at the rear of the vehicle" - No there is not!
"the charging point has extra long hoses and therefore able to reach vehicles parked within the bay to which your vehicle was parked" - No it does not and it is dependant on the EV owner having a long enough cable to reach the charger.

So, given that the Blink charger can only support TWO cars charging simultaneously, if both parking bays in front of the charger were being used, the 3rd parking bay could not be used for charging at the same time.  Assuming an EV parked in the 3rd parking bay, they would have to have an extra long cable to connect it to the charger, and assuming one of the two bays in front of the charger was available, why would anyone choose to park in the 3rd parking bay!

I'm tempted to complain to Leeds City Council and ask them to explain their comments and to apply some common sense and re-mark the white lines to exclude the so called "3rd charging bay" that is currently an excuse to fine ANY motorists.
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Re: Electric Parking Bay or NOT an Electric Parking Bay?
« Reply #11 on: »
Quote from: milleniumaire on June 10, 2024, 04:26:45 pm
I'm tempted to complain to Leeds City Council and ask them to explain their comments and to apply some common sense and re-mark the white lines to exclude the so called "3rd charging bay" that is currently an excuse to fine ANY motorists.
If it were me I'd make a complaint, according to https://www.leeds.gov.uk/Pages/Let-Us-Know-Compliments-Complaints-and-Feedback.aspx you can just email general.enquiries@leeds.gov.uk

If you pursue this, please let us know how you get on. Feel free to post a draft on here if you'd like us to take a look before you submit it.
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
Re: Electric Parking Bay or NOT an Electric Parking Bay?
« Reply #12 on: »
« Last Edit: August 21, 2024, 06:16:02 pm by cp8759 »
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
Re: Electric Parking Bay or NOT an Electric Parking Bay?
« Reply #13 on: »
Definitely raise a complaint about these muppets.
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Re: Electric Parking Bay or NOT an Electric Parking Bay?
« Reply #14 on: »
Just to wrap this up, I've finally got hold of all the enacted amending traffic orders which I have saved here: https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1wXlxpwJLysf4lFepxFs1pPq3v8PDS6Ip

As far as I have been able to establish, there is no order that creates electric parking bays in this car park, so there could never have been a contravention in the first place.
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
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