Free Traffic Legal Advice

I have a company car where the car reg got cloned in late July. I realised this mid August when the PCNs, congestion charges and parking fines started getting sent to my accountant (my trading address). I called the Met police the same day (11th August), and got a call reference number only - the office on the phone told me that car cloning was technically not a crime and a crime reference number could not be issued. When I asked how I could challenge the PCNs I had received, I was advised to use the call reference number provided.


The first PCN I got was from Lambeth council, for a 52m - Failing to comply with a prohibition on certain types of vehicles, on 29th July. The PCN was dated 4th August. I was with my family, driving to Wales for a holiday, on the date of the contravention, nowhere near where the contravention occurred in London. The cloned vehicle is the exact same make, model and colour as mine.





I challenged the PCN, within the time frame (either the 12th or 13th of August). I provided as evidence the call reference number with the Met, my airbnb receipt with dates showing I was in Wales on the said day, and credit card receipts showing myself at a rest stop outside Bristol and another one at a shop in Mumbles, Wales, on the day. I have no further evidence, as I wasn't really taking any pictures of my car on our holiday!


Lambeth Council wrote to me on the 9th of September (letter received yesterday) saying that I have not provided sufficient evidence.








They are insisting on a crime reference number. I have sent an email to the email address they advise in their letter earlier today, but knowing the Met, I am unlikely to get a positive response within 14 days, if ever. I am of course able and willing to provide them photos of my vehicle - however on this point, I added some stickers to my bumper on the advice of the police - this would however have been after the date of the contravention. Not sure if I need to advise the council of this?


I have looked at other threads of similar cases and have noted that the Met are in error and should in fact give me a crime reference number, but I am a regular civilian and have no idea how I am to compel the police to admit a crime has happened and a crime reference should be issued.


I will update here if the Met police do surprise me and oblige with a Crime Reference Number, but assuming the worst and they do not, what are my options? How do I represent my case with the E&TA (I assume that is the logical next step?)


Tangentially, I have also spoken to the DVLA, and my new V5C logbook arrived to my accountants office yesterday, should be with me tomorrow.


Thanks and regards,


motorn1by2

Thanks mickR

> I suggest get back onto the police and if they don't play ball complain to the CC.


I have emailed them, but in no way confident of any response within the 14 day timeframe. Not sure who you mean by the CC, sorry. Working assumption is I will not have anything from the Met to hand by the deadline.

> you say d la issued a new V5, i assume a new VRM?

I assume so? I haven't seen it yet, accountant popped it in the post this morning.

you can quote from this, scroll to "if you think your vehicle has been cloned" last sentence

https://www.met.police.uk/advice/advice-and-information/rs/road-safety/automatic-number-plate-recognition-anpr/

To whom is the PCN addressed and who is the RK?

original PCN is addressed to the company. The second document is addressed to me, as the Director of the company that is the RK.

IMO, not possible procedurally unless you hire the vehicle under a 'hiring agreement' and your company is a 'vehicle-hire' firm.

The long version:


(2)Transport for London or, as the case may be, the relevant borough council may serve a penalty charge notice—

(a)in relation to a penalty charge payable by virtue of subsection (5) below, on the person appearing to them to be the owner of the vehicle

2)Subject to paragraph 1( of Schedule 1 to this Act, the owner of a vehicle for the purposes of this Act, shall be taken to be the person by whom the vehicle is kept.

(3)Subject to the said paragraph 1(, in determining, for the purposes of this Act, who was the owner of a vehicle at any time, it shall be presumed that the owner was the person in whose name the vehicle was at that time registered under the Vehicle Excise and Registration Act 1994 (c. 22).

.....
1(1)Where it appears to a person on whom a penalty charge notice has been served under section 4 (Penalty charges for road traffic contraventions) of this Act (in this Schedule referred to as “the recipient”) that one or other of the grounds mentioned in sub-paragraph (4) below is satisfied, he may make representations to that effect to the enforcing authority.

(d)that the recipient is a vehicle-hire firm and—

(i)the vehicle in question was at the material time hired from that firm under a vehicle hiring agreement; and

(ii)the person hiring it had signed a statement of liability acknowledging his liability in respect of any penalty charge notice issued in respect of the vehicle during the currency of the hiring agreement

9)In this paragraph, “vehicle hiring agreement” and “vehicle-hire firm” have the same meanings as in section 66 of the Road Traffic Offenders Act 1988 (c. 53) (Hired vehicles).
......
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1988/53/section/66
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2000/2546/contents/made

**UPDATE**: Not sure why I cannot edit OP, so putting it in a reply - I now have a crime reference number from Action Fraud. Shockingly the police officer neglected to mention I could get a crime reference number this way. Hopefully this is sufficient to get the councils off my back.

The public procedure uses 'owner' liability, not driver. And the owner is presumed to be the RK who in the case of moving traffic contraventions - which this is - will always receive the first PCN because it's sent by post. Of course you may have received PCNs issued to vehicles for parking contraventions and as the driver you may make informal reps. But if these fail then the RK is liable.

They only have limited grounds on which to relieve themselves of liability, and as far as you have said none applies in your case

If you are neither the registered keeper nor the hirer then procedurally you cannot have a PCN in your own name. You may assist the RK(the company) make representations, but these will always be against their liability, not yours.

Therefore, if you do have a PCN in your name this must be procedurally improper and IMO you may make representations on these grounds, nowt to do with the underlying contravention.

You are mixing procedures.