Author Topic: Camden PCN for using bus lane - can I appeal?  (Read 744 times)

0 Members and 0 Guests are viewing this topic.

slapdash

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 414
  • Karma: +4/-0
    • View Profile
Re: Camden PCN for using bus lane - can I appeal?
« Reply #15 on: May 16, 2024, 03:44:00 pm »
Also, not sure I want to go to tribunal (again - 3 times for the failed ULEZ tickets)

Write a cheque then.

The problem is the more people do the bolder authorities get in pushing trivial boundaries.

Agree Agree x 1 View List

Hippocrates

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2205
  • Karma: +25/-1
  • Gender: Male
  • Location: The Cosmos.
    • View Profile
Re: Camden PCN for using bus lane - can I appeal?
« Reply #16 on: May 16, 2024, 10:05:11 pm »
I have messaged the OP.  Please give me your wife's number to stop her nagging you about paying! I will not lose this case.  If I do, I will pay half.  And then she can take me out for dinner at McDonalds.  Councils play upon such fear!  ULEZ has nowt to do with this!

I can't be bothered anymore with this thread if people do not listen.  The offer still stands.

cp8759, MrMustard and I are fondly described as "The Three Musketeers" by one member of staff at the Tribunal. If you wish for the guillotine, then pay.  I would PM both of them if you do not trust me.

I have just e mailed them.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2024, 10:13:55 pm by Hippocrates »
There are known knowns which, had we known, we would never have wished to know. It is known that this also applies to the known unknowns. However, when one attends a hearing, Mr Rumsfeld's idea that there are also unknown unknowns fails to apply because, anyone who is in the know, knows that unknown unknowns are purely a deception otherwise known as an aleatory experience or also known as a lottery. I know that I know this to be a fact and, in this knowledge, I know that I am fully prepared to present my case but, paradoxically, in full knowledge that the unknown unknowns may well apply.
"Hippocrates"

ἔοικα γοῦν τούτου γε σμικρῷ τινι αὐτῷ τούτῳ σοφώτερος εἶναι, ὅτι ἃ μὴ οἶδα οὐδὲ οἴομαι ε

cp8759

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 5274
  • Karma: +122/-4
    • View Profile
Re: Camden PCN for using bus lane - can I appeal?
« Reply #17 on: May 16, 2024, 11:11:48 pm »
Also, not sure I want to go to tribunal (again - 3 times for the failed ULEZ tickets)
@goonergaz I suspect you represented yourself for the ULEZ PCNs? Just under 50% of appeals are allowed, but for motorists who a represented by one of us the success rate is around 85 / 90%. For London bus lane cases, it's basically been 100% since July 2021.

If you pay now you're literally throwing your money away for nothing.
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor nor a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

mrmustard

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 283
  • Karma: +7/-0
  • Gender: Male
  • Location: High Barnet
    • View Profile
    • Mr Mustard
Re: Camden PCN for using bus lane - can I appeal?
« Reply #18 on: May 17, 2024, 07:58:48 am »
We can see from the images that the signs are missing. I took a Mov 23 PCN to the tribunal for a skip lorry which used the short bus lane to turn left and the council threw in the towel rather than fight the case.

I go to the tribunal nearly every week. I won 5-0 yesterday. Perfectly happy to be the representative (no charge, only a charity donation).
I help you pro bono (for free). I only ask that a donation is made to the North London Hospice if you can afford it and if you win. I have an 85% success rate across 2,000 PCNs but some PCNs can't be beaten and I will tell you if your case looks hopeless.

Hippocrates

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2205
  • Karma: +25/-1
  • Gender: Male
  • Location: The Cosmos.
    • View Profile
Re: Camden PCN for using bus lane - can I appeal?
« Reply #19 on: May 17, 2024, 09:25:46 am »
There you go:  two Musketeers have now offered to represent!  Meanwhile, just put in the challenge as advised above.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2024, 09:30:00 am by Hippocrates »
There are known knowns which, had we known, we would never have wished to know. It is known that this also applies to the known unknowns. However, when one attends a hearing, Mr Rumsfeld's idea that there are also unknown unknowns fails to apply because, anyone who is in the know, knows that unknown unknowns are purely a deception otherwise known as an aleatory experience or also known as a lottery. I know that I know this to be a fact and, in this knowledge, I know that I am fully prepared to present my case but, paradoxically, in full knowledge that the unknown unknowns may well apply.
"Hippocrates"

ἔοικα γοῦν τούτου γε σμικρῷ τινι αὐτῷ τούτῳ σοφώτερος εἶναι, ὅτι ἃ μὴ οἶδα οὐδὲ οἴομαι ε

Hippocrates

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2205
  • Karma: +25/-1
  • Gender: Male
  • Location: The Cosmos.
    • View Profile
Re: Camden PCN for using bus lane - can I appeal?
« Reply #20 on: May 17, 2024, 11:50:09 am »
Also, not sure I want to go to tribunal (again - 3 times for the failed ULEZ tickets)
@goonergaz . For London bus lane cases, it's basically been 100% since July 2021.

If you pay now you're literally throwing your money away for nothing.
The reason being: no VCA certificate of an approved device. Most councils have updated their cameras and certificates - this one has not at this particular location.  It is a Bosch for which there is no certificate=evidence is inadmissible at the Tribunal.  Seemples.

I think The Three Musketeers* should represent this one:

Aramis (cp8759) can attend by phone: camera questions.

Porthos (MrMustard) arrival by motorbike: signage issues and TMO.

Athos (Hippocrates) arrival by train: vague locus, failure to consider and popcorn provider for the Adjudicator.

One has to see the funny side of what is daylight robbery.  :D

I bet they will Do Not Contest.

*

D'Artagnan (Schofeldt) might attend too.  ;)
« Last Edit: May 17, 2024, 01:48:27 pm by Hippocrates »
There are known knowns which, had we known, we would never have wished to know. It is known that this also applies to the known unknowns. However, when one attends a hearing, Mr Rumsfeld's idea that there are also unknown unknowns fails to apply because, anyone who is in the know, knows that unknown unknowns are purely a deception otherwise known as an aleatory experience or also known as a lottery. I know that I know this to be a fact and, in this knowledge, I know that I am fully prepared to present my case but, paradoxically, in full knowledge that the unknown unknowns may well apply.
"Hippocrates"

ἔοικα γοῦν τούτου γε σμικρῷ τινι αὐτῷ τούτῳ σοφώτερος εἶναι, ὅτι ἃ μὴ οἶδα οὐδὲ οἴομαι ε
Funny Funny x 1 View List

goonergaz

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 11
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: Camden PCN for using bus lane - can I appeal?
« Reply #21 on: May 17, 2024, 07:55:05 pm »
I have messaged the OP.  Please give me your wife's number to stop her nagging you about paying! I will not lose this case.  If I do, I will pay half.  And then she can take me out for dinner at McDonalds.  Councils play upon such fear!  ULEZ has nowt to do with this!

I can't be bothered anymore with this thread if people do not listen.  The offer still stands.

cp8759, MrMustard and I are fondly described as "The Three Musketeers" by one member of staff at the Tribunal. If you wish for the guillotine, then pay.  I would PM both of them if you do not trust me.

I have just e mailed them.

Ha, I replied to your post asking about the wording of my appeal, I will repost here;
----------------
So I'm 100% clear, I challenge stating (my changes in bold);

Dear Camden

Ref: PCN                      VRM

As the owner of the registered vehicle, I was not driving at the time in question. My husband was driving, and he will be representing me from this point forward.


I challenge the PCN as follows:

1. There is no adequate signage in place or, indeed, shown in the video.
2. There is no exact location stated on the PCN.
3. I put you to strict proof that the camera used to capture the alleged contravention is approved by the VCA. Unless you can do so, the evidence is inadmissible at the Tribunal according to para. 7(2) of Schedule I of the London Local Authorities act 1996 (as amended)
4. The core Order (The Camden (Bus Lanes) (Consolidation) Traffic Order 2012)specifies an access exemption at Art 5.1.1. I was in the "bus lane only to such extent and for so long as necessary to enter or exit a side road" as demonstrated by your camera evidence.

In light of the above, the PCN must be cancelled.

Yours

My name not the wife's :)


Address
----------------

Appreciate the offer, BTW I've not had a message?
« Last Edit: May 17, 2024, 08:01:24 pm by goonergaz »

goonergaz

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 11
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: Camden PCN for using bus lane - can I appeal?
« Reply #22 on: May 17, 2024, 07:58:07 pm »
Also, not sure I want to go to tribunal (again - 3 times for the failed ULEZ tickets)
@goonergaz I suspect you represented yourself for the ULEZ PCNs? Just under 50% of appeals are allowed, but for motorists who a represented by one of us the success rate is around 85 / 90%. For London bus lane cases, it's basically been 100% since July 2021.

If you pay now you're literally throwing your money away for nothing.

I didn't know about this place, I went to PiPePoo (or whatever it was called). A real PITA and got totally shafted. The sign into the road was totally in the wrong place but she didn't care. I wouldn't mind, but I had to go 3 times which costs money and significant time for them to reject it :(

Hippocrates

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2205
  • Karma: +25/-1
  • Gender: Male
  • Location: The Cosmos.
    • View Profile
Re: Camden PCN for using bus lane - can I appeal?
« Reply #23 on: May 17, 2024, 08:11:49 pm »
PM you now. If they reject from the beginning, when it is Tribunal time, it will be a matter for costs.

Just bear in mind that most people who work for the councils are expected, in practice, to have the same knowledge as adjudicators because parking law is a minefield. I am trying to be kind to them to explain their incompetence. Merton e.g. have only just begun to learn re bus lane contraventions.

Just put in the challenge online and keep a copy, screenshot, the lot.

I have all the maps and camera details for each bus lane on this road. So I have e mailed you if you would like me to send them to you.

Athos!
« Last Edit: May 17, 2024, 09:28:49 pm by Hippocrates »
There are known knowns which, had we known, we would never have wished to know. It is known that this also applies to the known unknowns. However, when one attends a hearing, Mr Rumsfeld's idea that there are also unknown unknowns fails to apply because, anyone who is in the know, knows that unknown unknowns are purely a deception otherwise known as an aleatory experience or also known as a lottery. I know that I know this to be a fact and, in this knowledge, I know that I am fully prepared to present my case but, paradoxically, in full knowledge that the unknown unknowns may well apply.
"Hippocrates"

ἔοικα γοῦν τούτου γε σμικρῷ τινι αὐτῷ τούτῳ σοφώτερος εἶναι, ὅτι ἃ μὴ οἶδα οὐδὲ οἴομαι ε
Like Like x 1 View List

cp8759

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 5274
  • Karma: +122/-4
    • View Profile
Re: Camden PCN for using bus lane - can I appeal?
« Reply #24 on: May 26, 2024, 07:03:24 pm »
I didn't know about this place, I went to PiPePoo (or whatever it was called). A real PITA and got totally shafted. The sign into the road was totally in the wrong place but she didn't care. I wouldn't mind, but I had to go 3 times which costs money and significant time for them to reject it :(
For a ULEZ case, basically unless you're represented by someone on here who says you have an arguable case, then it's a lost cause. But then if it were a lost cause I'd tell you to take the discount while you still could.

Bus lane cases are much, much easier. Let Hippocrates sort out this case out for you and you can't really go wrong.
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor nor a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

Hippocrates

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2205
  • Karma: +25/-1
  • Gender: Male
  • Location: The Cosmos.
    • View Profile
Re: Camden PCN for using bus lane - can I appeal?
« Reply #25 on: May 26, 2024, 07:51:43 pm »
@goonergaz  you have my e mail address? Please contact me asap. E mail sent.
« Last Edit: May 26, 2024, 09:52:39 pm by Hippocrates »
There are known knowns which, had we known, we would never have wished to know. It is known that this also applies to the known unknowns. However, when one attends a hearing, Mr Rumsfeld's idea that there are also unknown unknowns fails to apply because, anyone who is in the know, knows that unknown unknowns are purely a deception otherwise known as an aleatory experience or also known as a lottery. I know that I know this to be a fact and, in this knowledge, I know that I am fully prepared to present my case but, paradoxically, in full knowledge that the unknown unknowns may well apply.
"Hippocrates"

ἔοικα γοῦν τούτου γε σμικρῷ τινι αὐτῷ τούτῳ σοφώτερος εἶναι, ὅτι ἃ μὴ οἶδα οὐδὲ οἴομαι ε

Hippocrates

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2205
  • Karma: +25/-1
  • Gender: Male
  • Location: The Cosmos.
    • View Profile
Re: Camden PCN for using bus lane - can I appeal?
« Reply #26 on: June 25, 2024, 07:33:09 am »
Rejection letter of course saying all their cameras are approved! Just carry on Camden.  ::)

You have stated that that the exact location of where the PCN was issued is not stated however, this does not provide an exemption or sufficient mitigation to cancel the PCN. The CCTV photographs confirm that camera number 207 captured your vehicle driving in a bus lane on Highgate Road. I would like to add that the London Borough of Camden only used approved devices to issue CCTV PCNs. Please note that each case is treated by on a case by case basis and past cases do not sent precedent for future PCNs.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2024, 12:55:07 pm by Hippocrates »
There are known knowns which, had we known, we would never have wished to know. It is known that this also applies to the known unknowns. However, when one attends a hearing, Mr Rumsfeld's idea that there are also unknown unknowns fails to apply because, anyone who is in the know, knows that unknown unknowns are purely a deception otherwise known as an aleatory experience or also known as a lottery. I know that I know this to be a fact and, in this knowledge, I know that I am fully prepared to present my case but, paradoxically, in full knowledge that the unknown unknowns may well apply.
"Hippocrates"

ἔοικα γοῦν τούτου γε σμικρῷ τινι αὐτῷ τούτῳ σοφώτερος εἶναι, ὅτι ἃ μὴ οἶδα οὐδὲ οἴομαι ε

Hippocrates

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2205
  • Karma: +25/-1
  • Gender: Male
  • Location: The Cosmos.
    • View Profile
Re: Camden PCN for using bus lane - can I appeal?
« Reply #27 on: September 08, 2024, 07:15:37 pm »
Appeal filed. The NOR is quite incredulous - even cites the wrong legislation and total failure to consider.

This really should be a job for The Daily Telegraph.  8)
« Last Edit: September 08, 2024, 07:17:11 pm by Hippocrates »
There are known knowns which, had we known, we would never have wished to know. It is known that this also applies to the known unknowns. However, when one attends a hearing, Mr Rumsfeld's idea that there are also unknown unknowns fails to apply because, anyone who is in the know, knows that unknown unknowns are purely a deception otherwise known as an aleatory experience or also known as a lottery. I know that I know this to be a fact and, in this knowledge, I know that I am fully prepared to present my case but, paradoxically, in full knowledge that the unknown unknowns may well apply.
"Hippocrates"

ἔοικα γοῦν τούτου γε σμικρῷ τινι αὐτῷ τούτῳ σοφώτερος εἶναι, ὅτι ἃ μὴ οἶδα οὐδὲ οἴομαι ε

Hippocrates

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2205
  • Karma: +25/-1
  • Gender: Male
  • Location: The Cosmos.
    • View Profile
Re: Camden PCN for using bus lane - can I appeal?
« Reply #28 on: September 08, 2024, 07:18:56 pm »
The camera is a Bosch and it has no VCA certificate for bus lane enforcement at all.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2024, 08:46:24 pm by Hippocrates »
There are known knowns which, had we known, we would never have wished to know. It is known that this also applies to the known unknowns. However, when one attends a hearing, Mr Rumsfeld's idea that there are also unknown unknowns fails to apply because, anyone who is in the know, knows that unknown unknowns are purely a deception otherwise known as an aleatory experience or also known as a lottery. I know that I know this to be a fact and, in this knowledge, I know that I am fully prepared to present my case but, paradoxically, in full knowledge that the unknown unknowns may well apply.
"Hippocrates"

ἔοικα γοῦν τούτου γε σμικρῷ τινι αὐτῷ τούτῳ σοφώτερος εἶναι, ὅτι ἃ μὴ οἶδα οὐδὲ οἴομαι ε

Hippocrates

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2205
  • Karma: +25/-1
  • Gender: Male
  • Location: The Cosmos.
    • View Profile
Re: Camden PCN for using bus lane - can I appeal?
« Reply #29 on: October 06, 2024, 07:58:34 pm »
DNCed. Costs application to follow. The correspondence between the parking manager and me is quite incredulous - from her side, and from my point of view! Total admission (involuntary) that the camera is a Bosch!  :o  ::)

More to follow as many appeals have been lost at this location. If I find that adjudicators have refused appeals  for this same camera, then it hits the fan.

I am seriously vexed.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2024, 08:59:56 pm by Hippocrates »
There are known knowns which, had we known, we would never have wished to know. It is known that this also applies to the known unknowns. However, when one attends a hearing, Mr Rumsfeld's idea that there are also unknown unknowns fails to apply because, anyone who is in the know, knows that unknown unknowns are purely a deception otherwise known as an aleatory experience or also known as a lottery. I know that I know this to be a fact and, in this knowledge, I know that I am fully prepared to present my case but, paradoxically, in full knowledge that the unknown unknowns may well apply.
"Hippocrates"

ἔοικα γοῦν τούτου γε σμικρῷ τινι αὐτῷ τούτῳ σοφώτερος εἶναι, ὅτι ἃ μὴ οἶδα οὐδὲ οἴομαι ε