3. BUS LANE in LEEDS: BUS GATE, BRIDGE END JNC, DOCK STREET
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BUS LANE in LEEDS: BUS GATE, BRIDGE END JNC, DOCK STREET
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Evening All,

I've received a PCN dated 31/08/23 for an alleged contravention of driving in a bus lane on 25/08/2023. (Originally posted on pepipoo.com but advised to move post to here)

Google Maps Street View - https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.7935685,-...i8192?entry=ttu

I was in the area on that day, I was trying to take a friend to the train station, and not being local to the area I was heavily reliant on a SatNav (I know that's not an excuse).
I do not remember seeing any signs for a bus Lane, I do remember ALOT of roadworks, and signs that were covered, roads that were closed... basically lots of confusion as to where you can/cannot drive!

I've read other posts on here about challenging PCNs based on the statutory ground of appeal at regulation 5(4)(g) of The Civil Enforcement of Road Traffic Contraventions (Representations and Appeals) (England) Regulations 2022 being missing. Can anyone tell me if this applies here?

Documents / video evidence all uploaded to DropBox - https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fo/c6nflthurfoknvqf0d7r9/h?rlkey=y0j5mbby3o9xkt72xmsx6ku2a&dl=0

Generally any help/advice welcome... even if it's to just pay the notice and forget about it.

Thanks
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Re: BUS LANE in LEEDS: BUS GATE, BRIDGE END JNC, DOCK STREET
« Reply #1 on: »
GSV is of little use here as it's not up-to-date; latest view shows extensive roadworks. You'll need to take your own photos to show us what is there now, taken in the direction of travel. We need to see what sign you passed, but I suspect it was a blue "bus gate" sign, but only a photo can confirm.
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Re: BUS LANE in LEEDS: BUS GATE, BRIDGE END JNC, DOCK STREET
« Reply #2 on: »
I've found the traffic order here.

I suggest you use this draft https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/leeds-council-bus-lane-pcn-headrow-jnc-vicar-lane-west/msg675/#msg675 and let's see what they send back.

I'll also find out the make and model of the camera.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2023, 06:14:02 pm by cp8759 »
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
Re: BUS LANE in LEEDS: BUS GATE, BRIDGE END JNC, DOCK STREET
« Reply #3 on: »
Quote from: Incandescent on September 08, 2023, 12:35:15 pm
GSV is of little use here as it's not up-to-date; latest view shows extensive roadworks. You'll need to take your own photos to show us what is there now, taken in the direction of travel. We need to see what sign you passed, but I suspect it was a blue "bus gate" sign, but only a photo can confirm.

Sorry I've just seen this response.
Unfortunately, I'm not local to the area so going back to try and get a photo would probably be more expensive than paying the fine.
However, there are currently extensive roadworks through the centre of Leeds - it's a nightmare.
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Re: BUS LANE in LEEDS: BUS GATE, BRIDGE END JNC, DOCK STREET
« Reply #4 on: »
Quote from: cp8759 on September 10, 2023, 01:11:33 pm
I've found the traffic order here.

I suggest you use this draft https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/leeds-council-bus-lane-pcn-headrow-jnc-vicar-lane-west/msg675/#msg675 and let's see what they send back.

I'll also find out the make and model of the camera.

Thanks, I'll do that today.
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Re: BUS LANE in LEEDS: BUS GATE, BRIDGE END JNC, DOCK STREET
« Reply #5 on: »
Response from the council:

I refer to your correspondence to the council and your request for the following:

Make and Model of CCTV Enforcement Camera that Monitors the Bus Gate on Bridge End at the Junction with Dock Street.

Leeds City Council can confirm the following details about this enforcement cameras at this location:

Make: Axis
Models: Q1700-LE (License Plate Reader) and P3265-LVE (Overview)

I've checked all the certificates for Leeds, and none of them cover these two cameras.
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
Re: BUS LANE in LEEDS: BUS GATE, BRIDGE END JNC, DOCK STREET
« Reply #6 on: »
Thanks for the update. Interesting that these cameras are not covered in the certificates. Does this raise questions over their legality?

I've not heard from Leeds City Council since my appeal (sent 14th Sept) other than an acknowledging email stating they are experiencing a backlog of correspondence.

Quote

Thank you for your email.
 
This is an automatic reply. Please do not reply to this email, as it will not be answered.

I can assure you that all correspondence is logged and answered.

Please note that a Penalty Charge Notice (PCN) will be placed on hold pending our investigations.

Currently Leeds City Council, Parking Services are experiencing a backlog of correspondence and are working to respond to your communication. Please be patient as we will respond and there is no need to send any further communication.

Please ensure all correspondence contains your PCN number or vehicle registration number.

Thank you
On behalf of
Parking Services
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Re: BUS LANE in LEEDS: BUS GATE, BRIDGE END JNC, DOCK STREET
« Reply #7 on: »
Quote from: Sophia86 on October 17, 2023, 11:35:43 am
Thanks for the update. Interesting that these cameras are not covered in the certificates. Does this raise questions over their legality?
It can get the video evidence thrown out, as happened in James Tubbrit v South Tyneside Council (TY00084-1812, 18 February 2019).

The council has until 8 November to serve a notice of rejection. If they don't serve a response by then, they are deemed to have accepted the representation and the penalty charge is cancelled.
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
Re: BUS LANE in LEEDS: BUS GATE, BRIDGE END JNC, DOCK STREET
« Reply #8 on: »
Hi All,
Reply received today, although data 25/10/23!
Appeal rejected :(

https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fo/dncd98onn6ujj2xx2qrke/h?rlkey=ryc8iv8pwlttaxetngc00a9qi&dl=0

@cp8759, are you able to help me craft a response based off the certificates not covering these cameras?

Thanks!
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Re: BUS LANE in LEEDS: BUS GATE, BRIDGE END JNC, DOCK STREET
« Reply #9 on: »
Well I would definitely not suggest you try appealing this yourself, as none of the arguments here are either straightforward or open and shut. However I'm happy to represent you if you'd like to carry on.

The main points I can see are:

1) The camera authorisation point, which Leeds have never encountered so it's unlikely they'll be particularly well equipped to respond to,
2) The date of service is mis-stated, a NoR issued on 25 October is deemed served on 27 October, no idea where they got the 31st from. Giving the wrong date of service messes up the 28 day period, which should be considered a serious procedural impropriety.

While the outcome cannot be guaranteed, I certainly think you have better than even chances. The question is therefore whether you're happy to carry on with the full amount at stake.
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
Re: BUS LANE in LEEDS: BUS GATE, BRIDGE END JNC, DOCK STREET
« Reply #10 on: »
If you think I have a better than even chance than I'm happy to take a risk.
I think too often we pay these fines as it's the easy option!

Please let me know what you need from me for you to represent me! I appreciate that offer.
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Re: BUS LANE in LEEDS: BUS GATE, BRIDGE END JNC, DOCK STREET
« Reply #11 on: »
Quote
I think too often we pay these fines as it's the easy option!
It must be, as over 95% pay-up.
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Re: BUS LANE in LEEDS: BUS GATE, BRIDGE END JNC, DOCK STREET
« Reply #12 on: »
Quote from: Sophia86 on November 13, 2023, 10:03:01 pm
Please let me know what you need from me for you to represent me! I appreciate that offer.
I've sent you a PM.
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
Re: BUS LANE in LEEDS: BUS GATE, BRIDGE END JNC, DOCK STREET
« Reply #13 on: »
DNC'ed.
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
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