Author Topic: Bromley - PCN is this Not Parking Correctly within the markings of the bay?  (Read 2460 times)

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Re: Bromley - PCN is this Not Parking Correctly within the markings of the bay?
« Reply #45 on: »
They are yes. The tone of the letter makes it sound like there is no other option but to pay the fine, no mention of the NTO or what to do if you disagree with their decision.

It also stinks that they don't change the website to show that there's been an informal appeal made. I had to ask on here what happens next because the website makes it look like you have to appeal on there again because there's no update. Totally confusing.

Re: Bromley - PCN is this Not Parking Correctly within the markings of the bay?
« Reply #46 on: »
OP, it's only confusing if you attach weight to the council's ignorance.

This is the enforcement process:

https://www.londontribunals.gov.uk/eat/understanding-enforcement-process/parking-penalty-charge-notice-enforcement-process

I don't wish to sound harsh, but this thread is already 4 pages long and you don't yet have a NTO. We know that some councils' actions can be frustrating, but c'est la vie.

Pl just wait for the NTO.
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Re: Bromley - PCN is this Not Parking Correctly within the markings of the bay?
« Reply #47 on: »
Spotted these cases in Bromley from yesterday's tribunal.

Shows how some adjudicators are wise to this and that an appeal needs to be prepared for those who aren't.

The first allowed case is actually for signed bays; the second (refused by Mr Burke) I think is in one the unsigned bays as with the case in this thread.

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Case reference 2240567623
Authority London Borough of Bromley

Contravention date 04 Aug 2024
Contravention time 16:45:00
Contravention location Elmfield Road
Penalty amount GBP 80.00
Contravention Not parked correctly within markings of bay/space
Decision Date 12 Feb 2025
Adjudicator Edward Houghton
Appeal decision Appeal allowed

Direction cancel the Penalty Charge Notice and the Notice to Owner.
Reasons I heard this appeal by telephone speaking to the driver Mr xxxxx.
His case is essentially that he parked in good faith and that there was no notice requiring him to park within the bay markings.
It is certainly, in my view, common sense that if a parking place is divided into parking places by white lines within the bay the motorist is expected to park within those lines. What else, after all, are they there to indicate? However the issue is whether the lines of themselves indicate that they are there not merely for guidance but that it is a legal requirement that vehicles park within them. Although it is not uncommon it is (and I speak from experience) by no means universally the case that Traffic Management Orders create such a legal requirement and it seems to me the motorist is entitled to be put on notice in a case where the particular TMO imposes such a requirement. In the circumstances I am not satisfied that it can be said the restriction relied on was sufficiently clearly indicated and the Appel is therefore allowed.



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Case reference 2240508511
Authority London Borough of Bromley
Contravention date 06 May 2024
Contravention time 13:38:00
Contravention location Murray Avenue
Penalty amount GBP 80.00
Contravention Not parked correctly within markings of bay/space
Decision Date 12 Feb 2025
Adjudicator Michael Burke
Appeal decision Appeal refused

Direction Full penalty charge notice amount stated to be paid within 28 days.
Reasons The allegation in this case is that the vehicle was not parked correctly within the markings of a bay or space. The Appellant does not dispute this but says that bushes and trees overhung the space making it impossible to park any closer to the kerb. They say that they needed to allow space at the passenger side to allow their 6 year old son who is autistic to alight. The Appellant asserts a number of failures by the Enforcement Authority in road maintenance.
The Enforcement Authority have provided photographs taken by the Civil Enforcement Officer which show a clear example of the contravention with the vehicle proud of the lateral bay markings by something like 18ins to 2ft.
The photographs do show overhanging foliage. There may be merit in the Appellant’s criticisms. However, if for any reason there is insufficient space to fit the entire vehicle within the bay markings, then the bay is not available and the motorist must find an alternative place to park.
The Appellant has not established anything which goes beyond mitigation. The Enforcement Authority may cancel a PCN as a matter of their discretion. An Adjudicator has no power to direct cancellation on the basis of mitigating circumstances.
Having considered all the evidence I am satisfied that the contravention occurred and that the PCN was properly issued and served. I am not satisfied that any exemption applies.


« Last Edit: February 13, 2025, 04:08:12 pm by stamfordman »
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Well, Bromley have replied to my appeal. Here's the letter. Spoiler: they aren't cancelling the PCN.

I will make representation. Any advice helpful!

Ringgitt


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Did they send you a notice to owner? What is this latest letter in response to?

Did they send you a notice to owner? What is this latest letter in response to?

Sorry yes, this is the reply to the appeal I made when I received the Notice to Owner!


Why didn't you come back here first?

What did you send?

Have they refoffered the discount?

The next step if you don't want to pay is to register an appeal with London Tribunals. Opt for a personal/telephone/video hearing.

You don't have to upload any evidence to start with.

Hi Stamfordman

I replied to the Notice to Owner with what had been said on her previously. Sorry, I took heed of the advice earlier in this thread to not clog up too much of this board with the ins and outs.  Is there something different I should have done at that stage then?

I'm happy to go to tribunal, just not sure how to word it if that letter was their response. I presumed that someone different would read my latest appeal have have the foresight to see that it isn't legal to give me a ticket for the reason they gave, but it reads as if it's been the same person each time?

4 pages in the foothills and then the enforcement process was given to you as a link and you were asked to wait for the NTO before posting again.

Then radio silence until your last post.

Post the full Notice of Rejection and NTO.

4 pages in the foothills and then the enforcement process was given to you as a link and you were asked to wait for the NTO before posting again.

Then radio silence until your last post.

Post the full Notice of Rejection and NTO.

OK, a little harsh as this clearly isn't my day job and the last thing I wanted to do was upset anyone, but here's the NTO.


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As you have received a NOR then you have limited time in which to act to register an appeal if this is your preferred option.

Sorry, but we need to see all sides of the NTO and NOR. A significant proportion of successful appeals is attributable to procedural improprieties arising from NORs and to a lesser degree NTOs which have nothing to do with the contravention itself. That's just the way things are.

And you won't find better scrutineers of these docs than here.
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Thanks Andersen, and from what I've seen I agree that the scrutineering here is first class. Coming from an industry which does not, I appreciate that this is not the type of work I am used to.

Spoiler: I work for a council. Just not in the same department!

Here they are...

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My files seem to be too large so I'll post the full appeal here...


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Please read the READ ME FIRST instructions at the top of the first page of the forum. For example:

3. Post the PCN and all subsequent notices or correspondence. The easiest way is to take pictures with your phone. There is no upload space on this site so you will have to upload to a picture hosting site (such as https://imgur.com or similar) and post links

You can use the "add image" icon to embed images in your post:


Pl post the full NOR, all we've seen is the first page. There's already an arguable procedural impropriety in the NTO* which means that they're capable of c**k-ups, let's see if they've done similar in the NOR.

As the NOR is dated Thurs 27 March then you have until 27 April to register an appeal.

*- page 2, last para! '28 days beginning with the date of this notice..'. Nope. Beginning on date of service. Although the correct reference is stated on page 1, how are you supposed to know which is correct?

28 days beginning on 6 March ....ends on 2 April. Whereas ..

28 days beginning on date of service...ends on 6 April.

4 days is a hell of a difference.
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All images...

https://imgur.com/a/EDvVneO

Apologies if I'm missing anything, I will try and put it right.  All help much appreciated.

FR