3. Brent PCN Code 53: Failing to comply with a restriction on vehicles entering a pedestrian zone
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Re: Brent PCN Code 53: Failing to comply with a restriction on vehicles entering a pedestrian zone
« Reply #15 on: »
Quote from: Bergy10 on February 20, 2025, 05:38:06 pm
Btw @cp8759 does it matter that the notice was sent to the person who the cat is registered to (who is not the driver) rather than myself?

Well yes it does matter, that's why the PCN has this bold text:



So what you're saying is that the recipient of the notice ignored that and passed it to you because you were the driver?

In that case you have two options:

1) Make representations in your own name but on their behalf, supported by a written letter authorising you to act on their behalf, or
2) Make representations (with their agreement) in their name, if you do this via the council website they could never know the difference and as long as this is done with the registered keeper's knowledge and consent I don't see any issue with it.

If this goes to the tribunal however, the registered keeper will need to provide a signed letter of authority.

Your draft is fine but personally I'd remove "I do not believe that", otherwise you're almost inviting them to respond that your belief is irrelevant / incorrect.
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
Re: Brent PCN Code 53: Failing to comply with a restriction on vehicles entering a pedestrian zone
« Reply #16 on: »
Quote from: cp8759 on February 20, 2025, 11:29:29 pm
Quote from: Bergy10 on February 20, 2025, 05:38:06 pm
Btw @cp8759 does it matter that the notice was sent to the person who the cat is registered to (who is not the driver) rather than myself?

Well yes it does matter, that's why the PCN has this bold text:



So what you're saying is that the recipient of the notice ignored that and passed it to you because you were the driver?

In that case you have two options:

1) Make representations in your own name but on their behalf, supported by a written letter authorising you to act on their behalf, or
2) Make representations (with their agreement) in their name, if you do this via the council website they could never know the difference and as long as this is done with the registered keeper's knowledge and consent I don't see any issue with it.

If this goes to the tribunal however, the registered keeper will need to provide a signed letter of authority.

Your draft is fine but personally I'd remove "I do not believe that", otherwise you're almost inviting them to respond that your belief is irrelevant / incorrect.

Thank you for the response @cp8759. Well the answer is both yes and no. The vehicle is a motability vehicle and the registered keeper is my disabled sibling (who is unable to make decisions). The notice came in their name, and I am responsible for driving them to where they need to go. My sibling will not be able to give a consent but our mother who is the guardian, can.

By the way on the representations page it gives the following options (attached as an image).

Should I not click the option that says I am "not the registered keeper but was the driver at the time of the alleged contravention"?

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Re: Brent PCN Code 53: Failing to comply with a restriction on vehicles entering a pedestrian zone
« Reply #17 on: »
Quote from: Bergy10 on February 21, 2025, 06:12:47 am
Should I not click the option that says I am "not the registered keeper but was the driver at the time of the alleged contravention"?
If you do that two things will likely happen:

1) You will get a letter saying you're an unauthorised third party with no right to make representations, and
2) You sibling will be sent a letter saying representations have been received by an unauthorised third party and the council cannot consider them without their consent.

You say your mother is your sibling's guardian, has this been formalised, for example with an order from the Court of Protection? Or is there any other official document to show that your sibling does not have mental capacity within the meaning of the Mental Capacity Act 2005?
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
Re: Brent PCN Code 53: Failing to comply with a restriction on vehicles entering a pedestrian zone
« Reply #18 on: »
Quote from: cp8759 on February 21, 2025, 09:10:47 am
Quote from: Bergy10 on February 21, 2025, 06:12:47 am
Should I not click the option that says I am "not the registered keeper but was the driver at the time of the alleged contravention"?
If you do that two things will likely happen:

1) You will get a letter saying you're an unauthorised third party with no right to make representations, and
2) You sibling will be sent a letter saying representations have been received by an unauthorised third party and the council cannot consider them without their consent.

You say your mother is your sibling's guardian, has this been formalised, for example with an order from the Court of Protection? Or is there any other official document to show that your sibling does not have mental capacity within the meaning of the Mental Capacity Act 2005?

Ok I understand, thanks for that information @cp8759. Would have made things very difficult had I done that, indeed.

However there is nothing official from a solicitor or a court to state our mother is the official guardian, but our mother makes the appointments, speaks with the doctors and medical equipment providers etc. I think brcause the condition is cerebral palsy, the hospitals, GP and our local council (Barnet) understand this and accept all communications from our mother regarding my siblings care and wellbeing.

What if we response with representations using the "I am the registered keeper" option with the representation text stating I (my sibling) am not the driver, and to address the driver who is so and so.

Otherwise if it is simpler, I can choose not to mention any of this and just respond as if I am my sibling like in your suggestion 2 in your earlier post.
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Re: Brent PCN Code 53: Failing to comply with a restriction on vehicles entering a pedestrian zone
« Reply #19 on: »
Quote from: Bergy10 on February 21, 2025, 03:50:51 pm
What if we response with representations using the "I am the registered keeper" option with the representation text stating I (my sibling) am not the driver, and to address the driver who is so and so.

Then your sibling will get a Notice of Rejection saying that they are legally responsible for the penalty charge regardless of who was driving, and liability cannot be transferred to the driver. The starting point is that your sibling is legally responsible for the PCN and as far as the law is concerned, that is also the end of the matter.

Unfortunately this is a legal process and without an order from the Court of Protection, you will really struggle to get the council to accept that anyone can act on behalf of your sibling. What sort of medical evidence do you have, could you get a letter from the GP confirming that your sibling lacks mental capacity?
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
Re: Brent PCN Code 53: Failing to comply with a restriction on vehicles entering a pedestrian zone
« Reply #20 on: »
Quote from: cp8759 on February 22, 2025, 05:56:11 pm
Quote from: Bergy10 on February 21, 2025, 03:50:51 pm
What if we response with representations using the "I am the registered keeper" option with the representation text stating I (my sibling) am not the driver, and to address the driver who is so and so.

Then your sibling will get a Notice of Rejection saying that they are legally responsible for the penalty charge regardless of who was driving, and liability cannot be transferred to the driver. The starting point is that your sibling is legally responsible for the PCN and as far as the law is concerned, that is also the end of the matter.

Unfortunately this is a legal process and without an order from the Court of Protection, you will really struggle to get the council to accept that anyone can act on behalf of your sibling. What sort of medical evidence do you have, could you get a letter from the GP confirming that your sibling lacks mental capacity?

@cp8759, thank you for thw response. I have a letter from the GP from some years ago stating my siblings condition and the fact that our mother is communicating with the GP on their behalf as they can not communicate themselves due to the condition.

We also have the hire agreement which states that the hirer is our mother with the disabled person being my sibling.

Can we use those? If not we have no problem proceeding as if the appeal is coming from my sibling directly. The only stumbling block will be if they will need to physically or virtually be in attendance at any appeals or hearings or if they will need to speak during the process as they do not have the capacity to answer questions.
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Re: Brent PCN Code 53: Failing to comply with a restriction on vehicles entering a pedestrian zone
« Reply #21 on: »
@Bergy10 it is important to avoid conflating the terms "appeal" and "representation", they are not the same. At this stage there is no appeal, the only option is to make a representation to the council. If that representation is rejected, the next step would be an appeal to London Tribunals.

At the tribunal stage I'm far less concerned because an adjudicator would in all likelihood be willing to make a finding of fact that your sibling does not have mental capacity and that would enable your mother to act as their litigation friend.

However the council officers will be rather more robotic in following a tick-box exercise which basically just says that unless there's a signed authorisation from the person named on the PCN, then the representations are invalid and that's the end of that. For the purpose of making representations to the council I would just word the representation as coming from your sibling.

However I'm now confused by the hire agreement, if your mother is the hirer why wouldn't the PCN be issued to her? Is this a motability vehicle?
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
Re: Brent PCN Code 53: Failing to comply with a restriction on vehicles entering a pedestrian zone
« Reply #22 on: »
From post Reply#16
Quote
Thank you for the response @cp8759. Well the answer is both yes and no. The vehicle is a motability vehicle and the registered keeper is my disabled sibling (who is unable to make decisions). The notice came in their name, and I am responsible for driving them to where they need to go. My sibling will not be able to give a consent but our mother who is the guardian, can.

But also
Quote
We also have the hire agreement which states that the hirer is our mother with the disabled person being my sibling.

« Last Edit: February 23, 2025, 09:24:45 pm by John U.K. »
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Re: Brent PCN Code 53: Failing to comply with a restriction on vehicles entering a pedestrian zone
« Reply #23 on: »
Quote from: cp8759 on February 23, 2025, 07:34:31 pm
@Bergy10 it is important to avoid conflating the terms "appeal" and "representation", they are not the same. At this stage there is no appeal, the only option is to make a representation to the council. If that representation is rejected, the next step would be an appeal to London Tribunals.

At the tribunal stage I'm far less concerned because an adjudicator would in all likelihood be willing to make a finding of fact that your sibling does not have mental capacity and that would enable your mother to act as their litigation friend.

However the council officers will be rather more robotic in following a tick-box exercise which basically just says that unless there's a signed authorisation from the person named on the PCN, then the representations are invalid and that's the end of that. For the purpose of making representations to the council I would just word the representation as coming from your sibling.

However I'm now confused by the hire agreement, if your mother is the hirer why wouldn't the PCN be issued to her? Is this a motability vehicle?

I agree, I have conflated things but yes, I did mean representations rather than appeal at this stage.

I also agree and think making the representations as coming from my sibling without mentioning anything else would be best, if that is allowable. If it is, then I think that is what I will do if you think it will be more straightforward.

With regard to the hire agreement, it is a motability vehicle. The contract itself says the hirer is our mother, with the disabled person being my sibling. However every NTL we have ever received has always been in my siblings name in the past despite this. Maybe motability vehicles are addressed in that way by council PCNs.
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Re: Brent PCN Code 53: Failing to comply with a restriction on vehicles entering a pedestrian zone
« Reply #24 on: »
Quote from: John U.K. on February 23, 2025, 09:21:21 pm
From post Reply#16
Quote
Thank you for the response @cp8759. Well the answer is both yes and no. The vehicle is a motability vehicle and the registered keeper is my disabled sibling (who is unable to make decisions). The notice came in their name, and I am responsible for driving them to where they need to go. My sibling will not be able to give a consent but our mother who is the guardian, can.

But also
Quote
We also have the hire agreement which states that the hirer is our mother with the disabled person being my sibling.

Yes, it is contradictory, we are even confused why it's happening that way as we received another PCN back in 2019 in similar fashion. The contract is exactly how I explained however they always send NTOs to my sibling so I assume they are the owner in the eyes of the council.
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Re: Brent PCN Code 53: Failing to comply with a restriction on vehicles entering a pedestrian zone
« Reply #25 on: »
@cp8759

Hope all is well mate. Just an update. I have been looking out for a letter and have not seen anything even though it's been since February when we sent in reps.

I have gone onto the website and it still, just like it has when we were sending the reps, shows as £130.

However when I look further I notice under key events it says the following:

PCN events
Date
Description
22/05/2025 16:42   Representation submitted Under review
22/05/2025 16:42   Discount Period Reset
22/05/2025 16:42   Rejected Representation - Discount Period Reset
06/02/2025 06:00   PCN Issued


So it seems they reset the discount period but did not inform us as we have not received any letter.

One thing to note it that the car was motability and has since been returned back at the end of March. So not sure if that has any impact.

Not sure what to do now as we have nor received a letter, do not know if it is with motability or the car manufacturer. What do you advise as a next step? Thanks.

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Re: Brent PCN Code 53: Failing to comply with a restriction on vehicles entering a pedestrian zone
« Reply #26 on: »
@Bergy10 the discount is off the table so the only sensible option is to appeal to London Tribunals, I'll drop you a PM in case you'd like me to represent you.
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
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