3. Brent council, contravention code 21, parked in a suspended bay
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Brent council, contravention code 21, parked in a suspended bay
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Hi all,
I have read a lot on Pepipoo about suspended residents bays but I wonder if anyone can help with the approach fighting 2 parking tickets (one for a car and the other for a scooter) for a 24 hour suspension in Brent.
Our car and the scooter were parked before the parking suspension was put up (apparently 19.06. which I would dispute but not sure I can without evidence). I actually parked the scooter on 21.06. but did not see the suspension sign if it was there! The residents bays suspension from House numbers 32-36 in St Johns Avenue was for utility works on the other side of the road (also had 2 parking bays suspended) which I suspect was for utilities vehicles to park and in force on 23.06.23 AT ALL TIMES (although resident parking controlled hours are from 8.30 to 18.00 Mo - Sat). I only found out from neighbours on the day of the suspension that our car had been towed to higher up the street...

I think I have 3 reasons to challenge the tickets on the following grounds:
- 4 days notice is not enough time to warn residents of a suspension and no notices have been in the letterbox
- there was only one sign for 4-5 bays outside house number 32
- the sign was too difficult to see or notice as hidden from branches of a tree right next to the sign.

Many Thanks for your help

Wolf

ticket link:
https://imgur.com/a/aT16uRr


PCN images scooter:



my photos:



PCN2 images car:





my photos:



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Re: Brent council, contravention code 21, parked in a suspended bay
« Reply #1 on: »
I have asked for the parking suspension logs, do you remember what time you parked?

You have until midnight on Thursday to make a challenge and preserve the discount.

Can you please give us a link to the exact location on google street view?
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
Re: Brent council, contravention code 21, parked in a suspended bay
« Reply #2 on: »
here is the exact location of the traffic sign (in winter):
https://goo.gl/maps/smnWp48rVko5ZQEZ7
« Last Edit: July 05, 2023, 07:12:19 pm by cp8759 »
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Re: Brent council, contravention code 21, parked in a suspended bay
« Reply #3 on: »
In which direction did you walk to go to your house, north-west or south-east?
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
Re: Brent council, contravention code 21, parked in a suspended bay
« Reply #4 on: »
Ours is No.40 so I walked North West to get home.

thanks, WOlf
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Re: Brent council, contravention code 21, parked in a suspended bay
« Reply #5 on: »
Was there a suspension sign attached to this pole? https://goo.gl/maps/vwTj3daEHT7GwYrr9
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
Re: Brent council, contravention code 21, parked in a suspended bay
« Reply #6 on: »
No sign at this post. This post is located at No 40 and the restriction was between 32 and 36. A sign at this post would have been perfect as it is right in front of my house so I would not have missed that!

Part of my argument would be that there should have been more signs up at this side of the street as there were at least 2 on the other side where the actual works have taken place. It also seems unusual to block both sides of the street as the works continued into Saturday without the restriction signs up and cars were parked on this side without causing any problems to the flow of traffic. I guess no point in arguing this direction as the utility supplier applied for both sides and there are no grounds in questioning that...
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Re: Brent council, contravention code 21, parked in a suspended bay
« Reply #7 on: »
Draft representation:

Dear London Borough of Brent,

I challenge liability for PCN XXXX and YYYY on the ground that the alleged contravention did not occur. After parking my vehicles I would have walked north-west towards my house at number 40, and there was no parking suspension sign attached to the regulatory sign for the bay located just outside my house.

Having seen that sign, I was entitled to rely on it to park my vehicles.

Yours faithfully,
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
Re: Brent council, contravention code 21, parked in a suspended bay
« Reply #8 on: »
Hi and Thanks for your draft!
I am not sure this will bite as the car and scooter were parked outside No 34 before both signs were up.
Are you saying they should have put up a sign at No 40 so someone like me parking at No34 would see that there is a restriction on this side of the road but further up the road? Is it reasonable to ask the council to put up a sign at No 40 to signpost a restriction for No 32-26?
Or did I misunderstand your point?

Many Thanks again!

Wolf
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Re: Brent council, contravention code 21, parked in a suspended bay
« Reply #9 on: »
sorry, I meant No. 32-36 (typo in earlier response)
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Re: Brent council, contravention code 21, parked in a suspended bay
« Reply #10 on: »

The driver parked the scooter on 21st therefore unless the council did not erect the sign beforehand - the sign states 19 June - it was there to be seen and IMO an adjudicator would be unlikely go for the 'book-end' argument as regards the scooter.
And the driver of the car was the same person and therefore knew the restriction existed and therefore whether they parked after the sign was erected...???

Sorry OP but why should 'A sign at this post would have been perfect as it is right in front of my house so I would not have missed that!' work when parking right next to a sign didn't?

The 'book-end' traffic sign argument has worked before, but each case turns on its own facts.

Only you know what happened but I would caution against making reps on a single point if you have more that could be advanced. But if you don't, then you don't.
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Re: Brent council, contravention code 21, parked in a suspended bay
« Reply #11 on: »
Thanks for your points, very useful.
So are you suggesting to argue the 'book end' point on the basis that both vehicles were parked before the signs went up?
I thought the point of the book end argument is that the signs have to be up when you parked the vehicle and you are walking into the direction with no sign (although there should be another one). given the position of the scooter you say that the book end point is unlikely to work for the scooter but might work for the car. That means I should argue in different directions for each?
reg. 'making reps on a single point' the only other I have to advance is the fact that the sign was hard to see as disguised by the branches of the tree it was near to. Not sure if this would work but I have photographs proving that you can't see the sign from our house looking up the road towards the vehicles. My point is that I have checked the vehicles on the day before from outside the house but that the sign was invisible.

Thanks again for your help!

W
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Re: Brent council, contravention code 21, parked in a suspended bay
« Reply #12 on: »
The obligation on the council is:

the placing on or near the road of such traffic signs in such positions as the order making authority may consider requisite for securing that adequate information as to the effect of the order is made available to persons using the road;

The scooter was parked next to the sign, IMO it could not be missed unless it wasn't there.

And as regards 'wasn't there', we weren't but the driver(s) was/were. I don't know when the scooter was parked only when you said it was..and you posted that it was parked 2 days after the 19th(the date on the sign)so the sign was there, or was it? The council's records will show when it was erected.

If both were parked before the single sign was erected, then it's immaterial in which direction the driver(s) went, there was nothing to see. And if you could claim that neither driver used the car subsequently, then that's it.

Don't lie about when the vehicles were parked, your defence needs to be the best possible based on the truth.
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Re: Brent council, contravention code 21, parked in a suspended bay
« Reply #13 on: »
Quote from: shoebedoe on July 06, 2023, 01:29:20 pm
Are you saying they should have put up a sign at No 40 so someone like me parking at No34 would see that there is a restriction on this side of the road but further up the road? Is it reasonable to ask the council to put up a sign at No 40 to signpost a restriction for No 32-26?
When installing a suspension, the council must provide adequate signage. This must entail signage on the regulatory signs either side of the suspension, because you're entitled to go in either direction and rely on the first regulatory sign you encounter.

You say the sign wasn't there, this is just an informal representation so I would send the draft as suggested above and let's see what they come back with.
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
Re: Brent council, contravention code 21, parked in a suspended bay
« Reply #14 on: »
Quote from: Ugly duckling on July 06, 2023, 06:40:56 pm
The scooter was parked next to the sign, IMO it could not be missed unless it wasn't there.
The suspension logs will prove this conclusively one way or the other, so there's no need to labour the point.
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
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